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Author Topic: Is America being "conservative" good?  (Read 25984 times)

Mrhappyface

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2012, 01:57:37 am »

I'm just worried that medical and insurance companies would collapse and take some of the economy with them. Also, fed AND states tend to do a shitty job at distributing funds correctly. A better blend of government/private healthcare is best, imho.
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alway

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2012, 02:01:55 am »

There are many cases in which it is better to let someone go without tests/treatment because those resources would do more good if used on other patients. It sounds terrible, of course, but that's only the emotional 'only the best!' reasoning which results in massively overspending on healthcare. Universal healthcare's goal is to allocate the available resources in the way which maximizes the good they do; for-profit healthcare's goal is to allocate resources to those who can pay the most.
You know, we could just treat everyone, costs be damned. We're already damning the costs, so we might as well.
This is exactly the problem with our current system; which, as I said previously, is the worst of both worlds.

We actually do 'treat' everyone ('treat' used loosely here). Anyone can go to an emergency room for emergency treatment. If they can't pay, the cost gets passed on to others. The biggest problem is that is only the case for emergency treatment; in many cases, that highly expensive treatment for a now urgent condition could have been prevented with a much cheaper treatment, had they had access to healthcare to begin with. To restate that: had they had taxpayer-funded healthcare access to begin with, taxpayers would pay less for their treatment.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 02:04:29 am by alway »
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MaximumZero

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2012, 02:05:04 am »

I'm just worried that medical and insurance companies would collapse and take some of the economy with them. Also, fed AND states tend to do a shitty job at distributing funds correctly. A better blend of government/private healthcare is best, imho.
With universal health care, there would be no reason for private practices to go out of business. The people who don't need universal health care would still utilize private medicine, for higher quality, shorter wait times, doctor rapport, and a host of other reasons. More than likely, those private practices would actually see an increase in profits, due to not having to deal with clients who can't or won't pay, and not having to try to get their <65% reimbursement from Medicaid/care.
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mainiac

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2012, 02:06:56 am »

And that's America's sad burden for a free market halthcare system: There are those that fall through the cracks. But we are so big, absolute coverage would be extremely difficult to implement.

Yes, that was be why every other affluent nation in the world is capable of providing universal coverage at half the cost of our incomplete coverage if not less then half.

I just hope we quit printing so much money eventually. (Also, thanks for not being the Escapist forums. They think all conservatives are controlled by Skeletor!)

This fear is not just misplaced but actively destructive.  The inflation rate is very low right now.  http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?s[1][id]=CPIAUCSL

But because a bunch of people keep screaming their heads off about inflation we do less about unemployment.  This problem is even worse in Europe where the ECB is insisting that there is an inflation problem even though they are clearly in the depths of a deep recession and it's taking a turn for the worse.  So if you don't want to be Europe might I suggest that the best place to start would be in their suicidal monetary policies?


I'm just worried that medical and insurance companies would collapse and take some of the economy with them. Also, fed AND states tend to do a shitty job at distributing funds correctly. A better blend of government/private healthcare is best, imho.

That "shitty" job the feds and states do is actually a lot more efficient and effective then the turd that is the private healthcare market.  Try actually y'know, looking at the research on this stuff.  International comparisons would be a good place to start.  Pick literally any other affluent country in the world and you will find that they are 1) having the government run the show on healthcare 2) a lot more efficient then us.  We could throw a dart at a map, copy the healthcare system of where ever it lands and come out way ahead.  Healthcare is a huge drain on an economy that otherwise would have a lot of good things going for it.
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Mrhappyface

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2012, 02:07:12 am »

Kinda like giving a starved man filet mignon when a hamburger would suffice. America tends to look bizarrely far-term in these instances.
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alway

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2012, 02:11:54 am »

A better blend of government/private healthcare is best, imho.
So, essentially what you want is Australia's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Australia
They are ranked as having better care than the US and spend about 9% of their GDP on healthcare, compared to 15% in the US.
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Mrhappyface

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2012, 02:12:15 am »

Giving America a blanket healthcare plan would be like doing the same for the whole EU. And trust me about government inefficiency, I work for them.
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Mrhappyface

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2012, 02:15:49 am »

For that, i applaud Australia. They can keep their censorship and weapon laws though.
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mainiac

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2012, 02:19:32 am »

Giving America a blanket healthcare plan would be like doing the same for the whole EU. And trust me about government inefficiency, I work for them.

Believe it or not but inefficiency works in the private sector as well.  Trust me I know, I've worked for both the public and private sector.

And no, applying a blanket healthcare plan to america would be nothing like applying it to 27 different countries in the EU.  Just assuming a ridiculous logical leap like that doesn't make it true.

I really don't get why you bother with this thread.  You already seem to know that america is the best goddamn it and are happy to ignore contrary evidence in the area that is very clearly our Achilles heel.  What purpose can this serve except as flamebait?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Mrhappyface

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2012, 02:30:55 am »

Wait, I never said that. America has 320 million citizens and the EU 400 million. I'm just saying giving the government all the responsibility for such a large and mixed population with one plan is silly. I also never implied America was best, just that I like my country and would like to see it improve. I am sorry that I came across that way.
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alway

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2012, 02:36:58 am »

What purpose can this serve except as flamebait?
I've seen flamebait. This is not flamebait. It's just a conservative new to the lower forums; don't worry though, our liberal brainwashing rays are powering up as we speak.  ;D


In any case, another thing which isn't mentioned enough in talk of healthcare reform is the pile of rubbish which goes under the moniker 'alternative medicine.' In summary for those who aren't familiar, alt med is generally defined as any sort of 'healthcare' which is incompatible with current scientific evidence. Or to grab the lines from a particularly amusing piece: "it has either not been proven to work, or been proven not to work. We have a name for alternative medicine which has been proven to work: medicine." Most healthcare systems these days, be they universal or private, include coverage of 'alternative medicine' and similar 'treatments.' The cost of these is then included in whatever pool is used; be it universal or the company's insurance pool. Most policies and such do not have the option to opt out if you don't want to pay for other people to take snake oil. This is also referred to as 'CAM' (complementary and alternative medicine), and is used by about 38% of the US population according to the NIH. Most of these are entirely or almost entirely unregulated by the FDA or other regulatory bodies and do not need to show effectiveness. These include things like homeopathy (which is big enough that many drug stores, pharmacies, and grocery stores stock them), and generally anything on this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Alternative_medical_systems
So; your insurance/tax dollars are paying for BS like this:
Quote from: Homeopathy wikipedia page
In the context of homeopathy, the term "remedy" is used to refer to a substance which has been prepared with a particular procedure and intended for patient use; this differs from the generally accepted use of the word, which means "a medicine or therapy that cures disease or relieves pain".[8] Homeopathic remedies should not contain pharmacologically active molecules,[9] A pharmacological effect would violate fundamental principles of homeopathy.[5][10] Modern homeopathic practitioners have suggested "water has a memory", allowing homeopathic preparations to work without any of the original diluted substance; however, no verified observations nor scientifically plausible physical mechanisms account for such phenomena
Quote from: Homeopathy wiki page
Homeopathy's efficacy is unsupported by the collective weight of modern scientific research. The extreme dilutions used in homeopathic preparations usually leave none of the original material in the final product. The modern mechanism proposed by homeopaths, water memory, is considered implausible in that short-range order in water only persists for about 1 picosecond.[105][106] Pharmacological effect without active ingredients is inconsistent with the observed dose-response relationships of conventional drugs,[107] leaving only non-specific placebo effects[3][108][109] or various novel explanations. The proposed rationale for these extreme dilutions – that the water contains the "memory" or "vibration" from the diluted ingredient – is counter to the laws of chemistry and physics, such as the law of mass action.[105] The lack of convincing scientific evidence supporting its efficacy[24] and its use of remedies without active ingredients have led to characterizations as pseudoscience and quackery,[25][27][28][110] or, in the words of a 1998 medical review, "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst."[29] Use of homeopathy may delay or replace effective medical treatment, worsening outcomes or exposing the patients to increased risk.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 02:43:24 am by alway »
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Mrhappyface

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2012, 02:42:38 am »

So like Chinese traditional herbs.
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Pnx

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2012, 02:43:41 am »

A little bit off topic, but personally I think I've given up any hope of us being able to manage ourselves halfway decently. Now I'm just hoping we'll one day be able to create some benevolent robot overlords (I will be among the first to welcome them), because quite frankly, we, as a species, can't even feed ourselves properly let alone deal with all the other issues we have to deal with.
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alway

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2012, 02:48:30 am »

Yep, 'traditional chinese medicines' fall under CAM too, as they have no evidence backing their claims.


And yeah, AI economic management systems actually should be not too terribly difficult; it's about on par with some of the other AI problems being worked on today. Certainly a problem well below the difficulty of Strong AI, as the statistics and large numbers involved makes any sort of AI prediction much more accurate, and most of the conceptual stuff already exists; it's just a matter of scale. Hell, the EU is already funding a program to the tune of $1 billion to create an AI system to sift through massive quantities of current events to predict future events while simultaneously building models of how to predict said future events. From there, it's just a short hop of giving the prediction AI a goal-based system to figure out the most likely way to manage things successfully.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 02:53:16 am by alway »
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Mrhappyface

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Re: Is America being "conservative" good?
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2012, 02:55:28 am »

Going to bed now, you guys were surprisingly civil to a Nazi redneck savage like me. Good night moon, good night owl, and good night to you all, you communist hippy nuts!
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