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[Reudh]

Weaker and fatter, but vastly more long lived. Good enough trade off for me.

Not only that, but we're probably the most successful human species that has ever existed by virtue of our adaptiveness.

[Frumple]

Of course, I'd like to end a potential flame war here; but I just wanted to clarify my context.

Ah, perhaps "involved" was inappropriate, I guess, to better clarify my question -- the better sentence would be "millions of lives weren't ended for stem cell research, to the best of my knowledge."

If a significant number of individuals were aborting for the purpose of contributing to the study, that would be a considerably different kettle of ethical fish, but if the research was utilizing and not incintivizing... well. Great deal (most?) of medical science is and was founded (initially, if not in modern studies) in the study of cadavers, and I can't really see much of an ethical difference between the two practices. To have problems with one and not problems with the other is perhaps an inconsistency.

Guess I'm trying to point out the separation between embryonic stem cell research and abortion practices, especially cases of the latter where the reason isn't medical. Which is mostly moot since we've got better practices nowadays, so eh. Anyway, call it the resource scavenging hat -- plenty of material, swaths of it the cause of which doesn't care what happens to it, just throwing it out, so to speak is... wasteful. Utilizing it is a bit macabre, but so is dissecting corpses to better our fellow man.

Thank you for clarifying your position, though. I was actually wondering if people (however defined) were having their lives taken expressly for the purpose of stem cell research. Thought I would have heard of that before it it'd been a non-isolated incident, heh.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Weaker and fatter, but vastly more long lived. Good enough trade off for me.

Don't be so quick to call us weaker. Even with modern health problems, the limited diets of earlier humans would have put a much lower ceiling on their maximum capacity for mental and physical growth.

Not only that, but we're probably the most successful human species that has ever existed by virtue of our adaptiveness.

There was also that one part where we killed all the other human species.

[kaijyuu]

Is killing off competition a form of self adaptation? Or is that adapting the environment instead?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

No one is exactly sure why the other human species went extinct, but what is certain is that it always would occur after we inhabited their territory. Granted, this may not be what it sounds like. For example, Modern Humans and Neanderthals coexisted and sometimes even interbred for thousands of years, but on the other hand, we're here today and they're long dead.

[lordcooper]

And we do have an unfortunate tendency to kill an awful lot.

[kaijyuu]

Our modus operandi is roughly "don't like something? Remove, change, or adapt it." We make the environment suit our needs rather than the other way around. Just look at the man made cave you're sitting inside right now. Naturally we're going to kill of competition. When we settle a new area, one of the first things we do is kill off native species that get in the way.

[Itnetlolor]

Come to think of it, in hindsight I suppose, from a semi-pro-life-ish standpoint (not opening that can of worms again, though referencing it still); at least the lives lost weren't in vain, and some efficiency in their loss was at least put to a better use; however, what a waste for the others unused. Yes, I am aware of the conflict of interest from my past statement. I'm not happy about the losses in general (naturally), but at least, if those lives were going be thrown away anyhow, what has been salvaged in the process got put to some use (just as long as it was ethically done, and not a forced option (e.g. A moster orders fresh fetuses for this, and no alternatives; exaggerated as it sounds)), and justifies much of the beginning of stem cell research that used them. I suppose that justifies a great deal of it overall. I still don't feel great about it, but at least I'm not as hostile about it as previously (that was quick).

From a different angle, I just hope, if you believe in ghosts/spirits/etc., the souls of the lost can think the same way and find some level of forgiveness for it (after all, it seems they didn't have much choice from their end); despite having been denied a proper cohesive mortal existence, which I suppose they thought were promised. However, if spirits retain some form of humanity regardless of shape or form, then much like any other human being or creature, they'd still be pretty pissed off about the whole thing overall (imagine being cancelled from existence; especially before you technically exist. Wouldn't you be pissed off about that?). Of course, at the same level, others would rationalize, just as I did, to at least find some solace that there wasn't waste, or for being a life cancelled, it was for a better use eventually; being a cost of one (or few) for many upon many and not cancelled due to population control, being the result of a poor choice, or an unwilling existence (existence caused by rape, for example), or ethnic cleansing especially. If the first or last were the case, I can understand any hostility they would express; I would feel the same as an Existing witnessing or hearing about it.

As for the others not so lucky to be useful, they have made for an interesting thought experiment, personally, that made me come up with a good nightmare fuel-based spiritual race good for use in a story or game. So to put it, their form looks like a mature version of their cancelled existence if they were to continue living post-abortion (however, they still carry on as spirits, trying to make life out of nothing; unsuccessful, they become irrational and extremely dangerous and violent); in many cases, especially if not given chances to learn as a person (fresh souls with no reincarnation experience), they are also feral lost souls just trying to eek out an existence from nothing, and extremely common, aren't even self-aware (I would imagine, they're much worse to deal with than Satan himself or the Antichrist (at least they're intelligent)), and have no idea how to properly exist in general, and eat anything in sight (souls, good or bad, mortal being, and so on, even each other; and they can't tell corruption from goodness, since they've never had a chance for anything and are like humanoid amoebas). That makes for some horrifying imagery. That's how I would imagine a lost soul would actually look like. Now, let's count the numbers (again, based on when you consider life's beginning (see above post))... Holy crap. Worse off, despite their form, I doubt they're demons, even though you won't be able to tell the difference as well anyway, especially if you piss(ed) one off, or were responsible for rendering them that way in the first place (and they recognize you).

EDIT:
If that idea were a reality, I pray not only for the souls screwed out of existence (an interesting way of phrasing that), but those that made the decision, as well as those that executed the abortion.

EDIT EDIT:
@Mrhappyface: Yeah. It still disturbs me to the core. I'm too much of a bleeding heart, it seems.

EDIT EDIT EDIT:
I guess the closest thing I can think of that can explain feral lost souls would be:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Those artificial soldiers from [REDACTED] near the end.

[Mrhappyface]

Weird shit, huh? Some of our medical knowledge comes from less than noble sources. Nazi experiments and unit 731 for example.

[Reudh]

Of course, just as Gunter von Hagens has been implicated in the black market trade of corpses, and yet without him we would not have plastination, a truly amazing way of preserving examples.

[Sirus]

Weird shit, huh? Some of our medical knowledge comes from less than noble sources. Nazi experiments and unit 731 for example.

Godwin! You lose!

You want weird medical knowledge without bringing up Nazis? Look at Leonardo Da Vinci, who supposedly dug up freshly buried corpses (illegally, I might add) so he could study how they work.

[Mrhappyface]

He did get corpses legally also to study. Huh. (Also, I never technically compared something to Nazis so ha!)

[Sirus]

Wait, he got those legally? I always heard he dug them up in the dead of night to avoid being punished. Perhaps that was someone else.

Mentioning Nazi experimentation directly after a post discussing a hot topic such as stem cells...probably not the best timing, perhaps.

[Pnx]

He got prisoner's corpses legally, but he started to get corpses illegally too. Came to some amazingly accurate conclusions too, it's interesting to think what might have happened if people had actually listened to him...

[SalmonGod]

He got prisoner's corpses legally, but he started to get corpses illegally too. Came to some amazingly accurate conclusions too, it's interesting to think what might have happened if people had actually listened to him...

There's probably been thousands of people alive at any given point in history who this statement could apply to.  Of course, Da Vinci is an outstanding example.

Weird shit, huh? Some of our medical knowledge comes from less than noble sources. Nazi experiments and unit 731 for example.

Had never heard of Unit 731 before.  Had to look it up.  Horrifying stuff.  One more on my loooong list of reasons never to doubt the depths of inhumanity that a powerful institution will sink to further its own ends.