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[GreatWyrmGold]

It seems to me that nobody has opened the subject of Greek Fire yet. Let me do my take on it. Greek Fire is an isolated case and I don't think it should be in the game, purely because we have yet to understand what exactly comprises it.

Greek-style fire might be possible, if Toady cares to take a stab at guessing how to simulate something that we're not really sure how to make now.

Yup. Nothing at all.

Greek-style fire != Greek Fire, just saying.

Dwarves != Greeks. Assuming Toady guesses the right formula for Greek fire, anyways...

[Gashcozokon]

There are plenty of other threads here about Greek-Fire, and Explosives, and Gun powder.  That is not the proposed topic here, the point is to be able to generate enough HEAT to cause ignition in the other Flammable Items already existing in the game.

I hope you understand my doubt. A: Coal has impurities. It's not all carbon. B: If no one did it until the 1800s, there's probably a reason for that.


If we did, somehow, get pure sodium, it'd probably be sprinkled along the ground indoors. I seem to recall that the human body has enough moisture to set off some alkaline metals; if not, or if the goblins wear shoes, there might be dew on the ground to set off the trap. Obviously, dwarves would need to wipe their feet before entering...

I don't take any hard feelings to your concerns.  I also don't expect Pure sodium, and I don't expect it to be explosive.   Sodium burns energetically, and at a high temperature, when in water the rapid shift in temperature suddenly flash boils the water into steam it acts like an explosion yes because the turbulence and air flow take part of the sodium with it expanding the area and affect of the reaction.

And you are exactly right, as a less pure substance it should be less reactive, and therefore less explosive. Thus more stable for storage, and limited in applications to merely causing stuff to burn than explode.

[Reudh]

What about that ottoman thing mentioned?

Rock pot + clay + fast reacting metal as a thrown weapon (thrown from another weapon, sadly.)

"The spinning clay bomb strikes the goblin in the face, bruising the muscle! The goblin is caught in a burst of boiling <metal>!"

[Nyan Thousand]

That's naptha, yes. Basically a ceramic molotov.

[Reudh]

That's the one.

[GreatWyrmGold]

There are plenty of other threads here about Greek-Fire, and Explosives, and Gun powder.  That is not the proposed topic here, the point is to be able to generate enough HEAT to cause ignition in the other Flammable Items already existing in the game.

We're not limited to one, narrow topic of discussion per thread.

I hope you understand my doubt. A: Coal has impurities. It's not all carbon. B: If no one did it until the 1800s, there's probably a reason for that.


If we did, somehow, get pure sodium, it'd probably be sprinkled along the ground indoors. I seem to recall that the human body has enough moisture to set off some alkaline metals; if not, or if the goblins wear shoes, there might be dew on the ground to set off the trap. Obviously, dwarves would need to wipe their feet before entering...

I don't take any hard feelings to your concerns.  I also don't expect Pure sodium, and I don't expect it to be explosive.   Sodium burns energetically, and at a high temperature, when in water the rapid shift in temperature suddenly flash boils the water into steam it acts like an explosion yes because the turbulence and air flow take part of the sodium with it expanding the area and affect of the reaction.

And you are exactly right, as a less pure substance it should be less reactive, and therefore less explosive. Thus more stable for storage, and limited in applications to merely causing stuff to burn than explode.

I'm still having trouble seeing sodium being exracted at all, because the only method anyone's pointed to is out of dwarven reach by a few centuries.

What about that ottoman thing mentioned?

Rock pot + clay + fast reacting metal as a thrown weapon (thrown from another weapon, sadly.)

"The spinning clay bomb strikes the goblin in the face, bruising the muscle! The goblin is caught in a burst of boiling <metal>!"

I believe you mean rock or clay pot + any kind of explosive. Still amusing.

[crazysheep]

I'm still having trouble seeing sodium being exracted at all, because the only method anyone's pointed to is out of dwarven reach by a few centuries.

We forget that magma is a possible extraction device here.. that might mitigate the technology barrier, don't you think?

[Monk321654]

I'm still having trouble seeing sodium being exracted at all, because the only method anyone's pointed to is out of dwarven reach by a few centuries.

We forget that magma is a possible extraction device here.. that might mitigate the technology barrier, don't you think?

If presented with any problem, just apply magma!

[GreatWyrmGold]

How, praytell, would you use magma? It's not a magical substance that wipes out armies, powers forges, and makes anything you like; it's just hot rock.

[Glyndŵr]

How, praytell, would you use magma? It's not a magical substance that wipes out armies, powers forges, and makes anything you like; it's just hot rock.

But in DF, it is all of those things. Hot rock that wipes out armies, powers forges and can be used to create many many things.

[Gashcozokon]

We're not limited to one, narrow topic of discussion per thread.

No of course not, but we all know how easily distracting the topic of blowing things up can be. I still feel there is a clear distinction between Explosives, and Source of ignition.  Yes only wanting enough heat to light other stuff on fire is more boring that a highly pressurized tube of liquid sodium primed to fire into a lake beneath a bridge full of goblins. But science and real world physics keep getting brought up, and so we should stick to that what science tells us physics would actually produce.

How, praytell, would you use magma? It's not a magical substance that wipes out armies, powers forges, and makes anything you like; it's just hot rock.

You would use Magma exactly as you said "Hot Rock". Rock so hot it is 12000šU, Which Exposure to heat in excess of 11800šU causes rock salt to seperate into it's base components Na + Cl.

[GreatWyrmGold]

We're not limited to one, narrow topic of discussion per thread.

No of course not, but we all know how easily distracting the topic of blowing things up can be. I still feel there is a clear distinction between Explosives, and Source of ignition.  Yes only wanting enough heat to light other stuff on fire is more boring that a highly pressurized tube of liquid sodium primed to fire into a lake beneath a bridge full of goblins. But science and real world physics keep getting brought up, and so we should stick to that what science tells us physics would actually produce.

Let's be honest here. This is Bay12 Forums. We derail threads. When the "derail" is actually discussion on a topic inevitably tied to the OP, you can't stop it even if you tried. Which you have. Let's discuss other explosive options, too, if we feel like it. If nothing else, you'll get a partial victory if the community likes some variation on explosives that's not yours.

How, praytell, would you use magma? It's not a magical substance that wipes out armies, powers forges, and makes anything you like; it's just hot rock.

You would use Magma exactly as you said "Hot Rock". Rock so hot it is 12000šU, Which Exposure to heat in excess of 11800šU causes rock salt to seperate into it's base components Na + Cl.

Alright, bravo! Let me rephrase that: How, praytell, would magma help overcome whatever issues prevented that from occuring IRL before the Industrial Revolution?

[10ebbor10]

So the point of the thread is searching a source of ignition for explosives materials.
However, the solution with Sodium doesn't seem to fit into vanilla.

Other solutions would be to allow dwarves to make bonfires(and then throw lignite into them) as done in a mod.

For those of you who do want exploding Sodium, would it not just be better if we ask for a couple of tags to be added, in a  sort of syptoms for rock kind of form.

Ie: [If Rock: Contact: Water]
  --> effects

Combined with a series of other effects:
[If:Rock: Contact: Magma]
[If:Rock: Mined]
[If:Rock: Heat: **(temp in urist]
And maybe even with a percentage chance. We might be able to accomplish a whole lot of things. Soap and snow and ice natural walls melting for example. Mined coal occansionally causing black lung.
Minegas explosions. Magical ore that can only be mined if it has contact with magma/water/heat/ other beforehand and is otherwise wortheless. While most of this is stuff for mods, it will allow this and a whole lot of other suggestions in a single framework, which can be expanded to walls and other things later on. FPS might be a concern, but if programmed wel, it doesn't need to be.

[Gashcozokon]

Let's be honest here. This is Bay12 Forums. We derail threads. When the "derail" is actually discussion on a topic inevitably tied to the OP, you can't stop it even if you tried. Which you have. Let's discuss other explosive options, too, if we feel like it. If nothing else, you'll get a partial victory if the community likes some variation on explosives that's not yours.

Granted. You are totally right, and I apologize.  After all a partial win is better than nothing.  Consider the resistance dropped.

Alright, bravo! Let me rephrase that: How, praytell, would magma help overcome whatever issues prevented that from occuring IRL before the Industrial Revolution?

How many 14-th Century Alchemists had access to Core Magma?

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm glad you're willing to see reason. So many people aren't.
How would magma be the key to creating sodium? Midieval civilizations had access to high temperatures from charcoal (high enough to shape iron tools, which are magma-safe), and yet no one used the "carbon+rock salt+heat-->sodium" method to make explosives until the mid-1800s. Once we know why, we can figure out if dwarves can make sodium. Right now, I'm guessing it's something like "insufficient knowledge of chemistry and no reason to think that it would be any use at all, plus a lack of spare people and minerals to spend on pointless experiments." The dwarves still lack the knowledge and reason to think that rock salt heated with coal would be remotely useful, and while they have sightly more minerals than European cultures, the danger associated with cavern beasts, goblins, dragons, goblins riding cavern beasts, cavern dragons, goblns riding cave dragons, etc, is high enough that every clever dwarf would be needed to make traps and the like.