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[Gashcozokon]

I have spent most of the day at work cruising the forum before posting this idea.
While i did see a number of like topics none of them touched close enough to the point I wish to convey except this one:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=54455.msg1169193#msg1169193
But it is well over 2 years old.

Many of you have been suggesting Magical or Moodable sources of fire, or explosives in one form or another via gun/black powder.
Which then starts up the various rants into technicalities, or realism etc etc. specific [Fire_Trap] tiles. Bah.

One of my (many)favorite articles in the Wiki is on Trap design:
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Trap_design#Drown_and_burn
or a hallway paved in lignite floor grates, plenty of good fun once you get them going.
Plenty of items in the game are flammable, but sources of ignition are very rare, and (I think) Entirely hostile.

To the Point:
The game already contains an abundance of Rock Salt  [NaCl] or Sodium Chloride.
My proposition is an additional reaction the the Smelter or Kiln. Something like this:

A Brief History Lesson:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sodium was first produced commercially in 1855 by thermal reduction of sodium carbonate with carbon at 1100 °C, in what is known as the Deville process.

A bit of Chemestry:

Code: [Select]


 Na2CO3 (liquid) + 2 C (solid) → 2 Na (vapor) + 3 CO (gas).

Carbon is easy, plenty of Coal for that.
So RockSalt + Coal + Heat = Sodium (Preferably in bar form)
My ideal here is that a liquid would have uses, bars while being very soft would still be shareable, and I have no interest in explosive properties.
Simply being able to have a shapeable [ B ]uildable item, that just happens to catch on fire when you throw a bucket of water on it.

I see a chamber of lignite floor grates, with a sodium statue in the middle and a pressure plate by the door.... You all have fairly vivid imaginations,
I don't think I need tofinish this train of thought 

It isn't a new Idea but I hope you agree that this is a fresh twist.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sodium was first made like that in the mid-1800s. The 1400s are sorta the cutoff date for technology.

Greek-style fire might be possible, if Toady cares to take a stab at guessing how to simulate something that we're not really sure how to make now.

[Gashcozokon]

Sodium was first made like that in the mid-1800s. The 1400s are sorta the cutoff date for technology.

Greek-style fire might be possible, if Toady cares to take a stab at guessing how to simulate something that we're not really sure how to make now.

Already starting with arguments vs realism.
I understand that the idea was not considered until the mid 1800's and that the game is aiming for a particular time frame that is earlier. But that doesn't mean that it was impossible prior. Nor am I suggesting only one method.  Certainly there are multiple ways of preforming the procedure, I merely illustrated one of them. But the Basics I pointed out being,  Coal + Rocksalt + Heat. Does not require 19th Century Technology.

One of the joys of the difference between a Historical game, and a Fantasy Historical game is that It has no need to be History the way it was, but instead History the way it should have been. 

[GreatWyrmGold]

Find a way to manufacture sodium using only 1400s-era technology, then we'll talk. Until then, stick to petroleum and stuff.

[Gashcozokon]

Find a way to manufacture sodium using only 1400s-era technology, then we'll talk. Until then, stick to petroleum and stuff.

I don't know how much more 14th Century you can get than Salt Rocks + Heat + Carbon = Sodium.  But I am going to see what my Search-Foo skills can provide for you, to see if I can find documentation detailing a method clearly as era-appropriate.

[crazysheep]

A Brief History Lesson:
Sodium was first produced commercially in 1855 by thermal reduction of sodium carbonate with carbon at 1100 °C, in what is known as the Deville process.

I've checked the Wikipedia article on sodium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium#Commercial_production), which is where you got this reference from, and there seem to be a few contradictions between the article on sodium and the linked/referenced articles which follow. For one, the Deville process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deville_process) is used to extract aluminium from bauxite, not sodium as claimed in the original article. Secondly, carbothermic reactions are not viable for sodium extraction, according to the article on carbothermic reduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbothermal_reduction). Furthermore, the citations used in the sodium article are 50 years out of date - the Kirk-Othmer encyclopedia references another encyclopedia on chemistry from the 1960's.

Based on these contradicting claims, I am not willing to back your suggestion that dwarves could extract sodium using the proposed reaction. Unless, of course, we resort to magma. Now that could possibly provide the heat required to extract sodium via a carbothermic reaction.

[Gashcozokon]

Thank you for that Crazysheep. It was very through and I appreciate it. I don't have the original link I used as I made the first post from work.
But Moving along, I did mention the Smelter in my first post, and if a limitation to only a Magma smelter, I am fine with that too.

Unless, of course, we resort to magma. Now that could possibly provide the heat required to extract sodium via a carbothermic reaction.

The 1,100 C mentioned when converted to Degrees Urist = 11,980 which Happens to be just below that of Magma @ 12,000 U.
So, while Electrolysis methods of eccentric technology require less energy and are more efficient. Brute force Heat could produce a form of Sodium.  And again I am not looking for any kind of super game altering change to make mega death traps with, just a bit of basic chemistry to produce enough of an exothermic reaction to ignite another flammable surface.

[crazysheep]

But Moving along, I did mention the Smelter in my first post, and if a limitation to only a Magma smelter, I am fine with that too.

Unless, of course, we resort to magma. Now that could possibly provide the heat required to extract sodium via a carbothermic reaction.

The 1,100 C mentioned when converted to Degrees Urist = 11,980 which Happens to be just below that of Magma @ 12,000 U.

So it looks like magma might be the solution to the technology limitation then
I suppose the next possible limitation might be sodium storage prior to use. Also, how would the sodium-based traps work? Quite a few biomes encounter rain of some sort, and even snow, which would plausibly activate the traps.

[Gashcozokon]

So it looks like magma might be the solution to the technology limitation then
I suppose the next possible limitation might be sodium storage prior to use. Also, how would the sodium-based traps work? Quite a few biomes encounter rain of some sort, and even snow, which would plausibly activate the traps.

I'm sorry, all I heard after that first sentence was

Sounds Like FUN

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Fun

[GreatWyrmGold]

Find a way to manufacture sodium using only 1400s-era technology, then we'll talk. Until then, stick to petroleum and stuff.

I don't know how much more 14th Century you can get than Salt Rocks + Heat + Carbon = Sodium.  But I am going to see what my Search-Foo skills can provide for you, to see if I can find documentation detailing a method clearly as era-appropriate.

I hope you understand my doubt. A: Coal has impurities. It's not all carbon. B: If no one did it until the 1800s, there's probably a reason for that.


If we did, somehow, get pure sodium, it'd probably be sprinkled along the ground indoors. I seem to recall that the human body has enough moisture to set off some alkaline metals; if not, or if the goblins wear shoes, there might be dew on the ground to set off the trap. Obviously, dwarves would need to wipe their feet before entering...

[Nyan Thousand]

Now, we've had gunpowder as early as 1st century AD from China. If we don't count that, then we've been using cannons since the 13th century. Using saltpeter to make things go boom is easily in the so-called medieval timeframe. Sodium, maybe not. But did have a lot of explosive capability. There's, like I said, saltpeter, then there's naptha, which is, what, petroleum? I'm sure I'm missing something else. Point is, if we want to add explosives, it's certainly not anachronistic.

It seems to me that nobody has opened the subject of Greek Fire yet. Let me do my take on it. Greek Fire is an isolated case and I don't think it should be in the game, purely because we have yet to understand what exactly comprises it.

[Glyndŵr]

Toady has mentioned adding oil to the game. If we have an extremely flammable liquid like that, why not find some way to weaponise it and spray it all over the goblins? A bit like napalm. You could pressurise it, drop a burning block of graphite on the goblins, then watch as the spraying oil is lit and causes considerable agony and terror.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Now, we've had gunpowder as early as 1st century AD from China. If we don't count that, then we've been using cannons since the 13th century. Using saltpeter to make things go boom is easily in the so-called medieval timeframe. Sodium, maybe not. But did have a lot of explosive capability. There's, like I said, saltpeter, then there's naptha, which is, what, petroleum? I'm sure I'm missing something else. Point is, if we want to add explosives, it's certainly not anachronistic.

Yup. The only argument is "But normal fantasy doesn't have explosives!" And I think that the orcs in Lord of the Rings used gunpowder, so nyah.

It seems to me that nobody has opened the subject of Greek Fire yet. Let me do my take on it. Greek Fire is an isolated case and I don't think it should be in the game, purely because we have yet to understand what exactly comprises it.

Greek-style fire might be possible, if Toady cares to take a stab at guessing how to simulate something that we're not really sure how to make now.

Yup. Nothing at all.

[crazysheep]

It seems to me that nobody has opened the subject of Greek Fire yet. Let me do my take on it. Greek Fire is an isolated case and I don't think it should be in the game, purely because we have yet to understand what exactly comprises it.

Greek-style fire might be possible, if Toady cares to take a stab at guessing how to simulate something that we're not really sure how to make now.

Yup. Nothing at all.

Greek-style fire != Greek Fire, just saying.

[King Mir]

IIRC there were Ottoman units that would throw explosive ceramic pots. Dangerous things that would sometimes go off on the wielder.