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[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I guess Mako's mutual respect and admiration with Korra doesn't count either. Or the message about finding healthy relationships that work for all parties.

Mako's is respect but not friendship. The scene only highlights how distant they have become to the extent that Mako while friendly has pretty much forced himself into an ally position keeping her at arms length. They might as well be strangers.

The ending to Korra is still good. It just starts the arc up again.

Though I guess that is a pretty large difference between the first series and the second. In the first series you kind of got the friendship that was between all of them, you got the idea that even after Avatar they probably hung out and found ways to be with one another.

Legend of Korra, however, you get the idea that they are friends but that they just slowly stopped caring for one another on a personal level. They will still do favors but they won't go to eachother's birthdays. Basically they might show up to the wedding.

Then again I am REALLY used to the "Bonds tighter then family" aspect of these kinds of shows.

I am getting Kim Possible Flashbacks. THAT should have been my mindset going into this. Since that is sort of the same logic the show is using. I still remember a lot time ago praising Kim Possible for actually not pairing up the two leads and instead keeping them to a very close and platonic relationship, until the movie.

Though no matter how hard I try I just can't seem to get the Kim Possible Mindset. Can someone help me with that?

OHHH MY GOODNESS I CAN'T BELIEVE I FORGOT ALL ABOUT IT!

I had the same issue with the ending of Avatar the Last Airbender too with Aang and Kitara!

Ahh so I see I just have this general feeling about the series in general. As well it seems just romance in children's shows in general it seems (well SORT OF!). More or less I seem to keep getting confused whenever I see a show develop strong friendships and then the show goes "it was romantic the entire time! I mean wasn't it obvious? They were great friends of COURSE it was romantic" rather then try to develop them separately like how it tends to work as romance and friendship are equal yet separate concepts in my mind. So going from friendship to romance doesn't give you crossover points

Not going to break my no complaining rule.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Neonivek]

Spoiler: Korra (click to show/hide)

I've seen the "friendship and romance are completely separate things" argument a few times for why the buildup to this doesn't make sense, and I can't buy it. Maybe that's true for you, but it doesn't match up with my experience of friendship or romance.

Cause otherwise it is just a switch... you just got to jiggle the handle

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Romance and Friendship aren't complete opposites but they are not the same thing. There was friendship build up, but no romantic build up except that they had strong feelings for one another.

Which of course is part of the Kim Possible Mindset. "Strong feelings = Romance"

Romance without friendship though is a pretty dry relationship

Though here is another way I could interpret it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It was the START of a romantic relationship. It wasn't the "middle of the relationship" as people suggest here.

It wasn't a Kim Possible Moment

They finally put everything away so they could start a romantic relationship. It wasn't a censored kiss at all, it wasn't the reveal.

[Glowcat]

There was also the longer version of how their romance developed behind the scenes from the developer perspective.

http://bryankonietzko.tumblr.com/post/105916338157/korrasami-is-canon-you-can-celebrate-it-embrace

[Neonivek]

There was also the longer version of how their romance developed behind the scenes from the developer perspective.

http://bryankonietzko.tumblr.com/post/105916338157/korrasami-is-canon-you-can-celebrate-it-embrace

Ehh tokenism.

Go big or go home.

Making it very ambiguous, to the point where it is just friendship, because the networks won't allow it and then filling in that info after the fact hardly counts within the context of the show.

There is only one guy I like who fills in a lot of important info after the fact. The guy who writes One Piece. Mostly because he always makes up the craziest stuff for it.

Though I've long since Forgiven Kim Possible for doing it MOSTLY because while yes the "of course they are in love" aspect was forced, they actually didn't start them out as best lovers. They actually had to build up their new relationship.

[Putnam]

There was also the longer version of how their romance developed behind the scenes from the developer perspective.

http://bryankonietzko.tumblr.com/post/105916338157/korrasami-is-canon-you-can-celebrate-it-embrace

Ehh tokenism.

wh

what

[Neonivek]

It is mostly towards the first link, not the one I quoted.

Unfortunately complaining rule kicks in.

So I can only state facts.

Though I do like the idea that MAYBE this will push the envelope enough (well not really because you have to read the Word of God to even know this for a fact... and accept Post show word of god canon as well) that they might change the rating system.

[Bauglir]

I get the criticism about it feeling like a token addition - I, too, wish they'd actually put something definitive on-screen. But this isn't like the Dumbledore situation. We actually did have some hints in the series to suggest it was going to happen. Yeah, there's nothing that conclusively proves it, but insisting that there has to be is just drawing a little box around what you think is the Right Way to do things. Literally the only thing we were missing from a typical love story arc was the 'I love you' moment, which they could easily have slipped in at the end (that they didn't is my biggest complaint, but they definitely had enough buildup that it would've been plausible had it happened). No, there's nothing about their behavior that rules out friendship, but there's nothing that rules out romance either - there's a lot overlap there, which should be unsurprising.

Complaining that it should've ended without a romance seems equally misguided. Don't get me wrong, I'd love more stories to do that, but you can't expect every kind of progress from a single work. Getting us out of the "Which boy will Korra end up with" box is good no matter how they do it, and I'm not about about to demand every television show aimed at teenagers forgo the absolute most reliable narrative device in a coming-of-age story. Somehow, this particular objection seems to escape notice in most other shows (and I sure as hell didn't see it happen when Korra started dating Mako).

Don't get me wrong, I think it could be better, but I haven't heard any criticism so far that boils down to anything other than "I can't handle subtlety in my progressive narratives", which is absurd since the lack of it is something people have been complaining about for ages, or else "It wasn't good in the way I wanted it to be good", which is hardly a damning piece of criticism. Sure, I have absolutely no doubt that they avoided making it an explicit pairing because of a directive from on high, or else an expectation that it would be forbidden if they tried it, but I think that the work they produced was actually fine in spite of all that, at least on these terms.

Now, on a purely emotional level, I really do wish they'd have kissed on screen, but that's because it would've been more satisfying to me as a shipper (god, homestuck's influence on me will never end). But that's a different thing.

[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

getting us out of the "Which boy will Korra end up with" box is good no matter how they do it

Well, that assumes... of course... that you don't consider this the same box. I usually just switch Asumi's relationship to male and judge it by those standards, which is why I compare it to Kim Possible. It just expands the targets.

As well Bauglir I should say that there are three endings I would have liked in Korra
1) They didn't get together and explored their friendship free from the shackles of relationship to become close and possibly more.
or
2) They actually got together at the end
or
3) It was ambiguous as to their relationship and ultimately it doesn't matter. They are free to explore whatever feelings they might have and the book ends, but we know that no matter what it is... they are together and with a strong bond that isn't built on anything but love and respect, without any expectations.

But neither of those were the ending unless you ignore word of god. They went for the 3rd, because the 2nd wouldn't have passed by the censors, but then word of god got involved.

That is the most I can get away with without breaking complaining rule.

Here is the thing about Dumbledore... It didn't matter. It didn't change the story or the narrative in any meaningful sense. Most of the backlash was because it was a piece of information that should have been included narratively.

People rightfully complained because that is bad storytelling.

As well there is a difference between ambiguous and subtle. Just watch the scene with Korra and Mako during the heat wave.

[Bauglir]

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with the Dumbledore thing. It's just simply not the case here, because it clearly did affect the narrative (and it's one of the most common comparisons I see, especially by people who think they didn't go too far enough). As I've said, though, I don't buy the argument that they didn't get together at the end. Word of God changes nothing.

[Neonivek]

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with the Dumbledore thing. It's just simply not the case here, because it clearly did affect the narrative (and it's one of the most common comparisons I see, especially by people who think they didn't go too far enough). As I've said, though, I don't buy the argument that they didn't get together at the end. Word of God changes nothing.

Ultimately though it ALL hinges on ONE line.

The shipping is held together by exactly one line in the whole 4th season.

Because most of their relationship is built up, off screen with the exact nature of it never being revealed. They had about 3 personal scenes together, of which none of them were romantic in nature without any of them really trying to explore the other... In fact they specifically try to avoid talking about each other to each other.

I feel that without that one line, it would be ambiguous to you as well.

[Sheb]

So I'm watching Legend of Korra now. As far as I can tell, it's about a spoiled kid joining a magician death squad to go and arrest muggles daring to oppose the current magistico-fascist regime, killing those that resist. I seriously like the guy that's supposed to be the villain a lot better.

[cerapa]

They don't actually kill people.

But yeah, that's pretty much season one from an equalist perspective.

[Sheb]

I'm fairly certain sticking someone in a block of ice for extended period of time leaves you with a corpse.

[Bauglir]

You'd think so, but do keep in mind that this is a world that more or less operates like a fantasy RPG. People are a lot more durable.