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[Neonivek]

There magic in this universe. A literal figure of of Honor doesnt seem so outlandish. Though I am not quite sure what it is. It seems more driven by Jacks guilt, then his actual honor.

My issue isn't that he was unbelievable or cheap.... (heck he could even be Hachiman... or a figment created by Aku).

It is more that... It would mean so much more if he wasn't real, if this is everything inside Jack's own mind.

When the spirit spoke it would seem like she is conversing with it, maybe even fighting with it, only to change angles and she is speaking with Jack..... Something along those lines.

It gives it a bit more meaning then having the spirit speak for Jack in Proxy.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I think you should remember what kind of show Samurai Jack is. It's an action cartoon first and foremost. Comedy and Drama exist pretty much in equilibrium within the writing. Besides. It's still highly symbolic. The meaning is changed, but we've had quite a bit of Jack in his own head thus far.

[Neonivek]

I think you should remember what kind of show Samurai Jack is. It's an action cartoon first and foremost. Comedy and Drama exist pretty much in equilibrium within the writing. Besides. It's still highly symbolic. The meaning is changed, but we've had quite a bit of Jack in his own head thus far.

I think arguing that Samurai Jack is a stupid show... isn't a reasonable argument.

Yes I know you are arguing more in favor that "Having it be a figment of his broken mind would mean there couldn't be a fight" but that is an even more... unreasonable argument.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I think you should remember what kind of show Samurai Jack is. It's an action cartoon first and foremost. Comedy and Drama exist pretty much in equilibrium within the writing. Besides. It's still highly symbolic. The meaning is changed, but we've had quite a bit of Jack in his own head thus far.

I think arguing that Samurai Jack is a stupid show... isn't a reasonable argument.

"It is a cartoon, and an action show. It cannot possibly show psychology!"

Maybe you should dissect what I wrote a little more in depth before claiming that I, someone who LOVES the new season, is arguing that Samurai Jack is a stupid show. I said it's an ACTION cartoon first and foremost. That is 100% true. If you asked Genndy he'd say the same. The point is that there's a physical fight in every episode. Additionally, fuck you for talking out of your ass. We're on episode 6, which means we're basically somewhere between the Midpoint and the Act 2 break of the story arc, which is the point where the protagonist's emotional problems comes to a head. So it makes perfect sense for Jack's increasingly potent and debilitating guilt/shame/dishonor to manifest physically--Old SJ had similar fights spread throughout too.

In fact, it is ultimately much more symbolic than what you have suggested. While television is all about dialogue, short series like this, and animation especially--not to mention all media (for obvious reasons)--is a visual medium. We're literally watching Jack's consciousness battle it out with the dialogue between Ashi and the Spirit Samurai representing the conflicting forces in his head. Samurai Jack is film literature man, and it is SUCH a beautiful show. What more can you ask for than to watch Jack's emotional struggle unfold visually? What you suggest is A.) boring, and B.) way outside of Samurai Jack's style, which has always valued visual storytelling over dialogue... Which is what makes SJ so great to begin with, and indeed, one of the most innovative cartoons ever.

In short, shame on you for not appreciating--for not even recognizing--the fully realized and beautifully choreographed dance of Jack's (emotional) pivotal moment. Man, this episode was art--From Ep. 1-6, Jack's emotional journey has been one of the most compelling I have ever had the pleasure to watch, the whole series is art on a level not commonly aired on tv... and it's just over your head, dude. Way over.

[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

it's just over your head, dude. Way over.

Ahuh, sure. Ignoring that it was one example...

The living embodiment of Jack's pains and doubts... Such deep symbolism... That I shall never see.

Ohh wait... that is right... comprehension is something I am really good at and I already KNOW all the symbolism (Including Ashi becoming the mother goddess)

But yeah, I still prefer deeper character connection to symbolic disconnect. As with the way it played out it gives Jack plausible deniability that he means anything the spirit says.

Basically I prefer to SEE a character going through something and saying how they feel. As opposed to someone else telling us (or in this case... just saying a bunch of beliefs that may or may not apply). Having the Spirit somehow BE Jack would have been better in my mind and I am disappointed it wasn't the case.

Oddly enough the Children should have been one of the earlier reveals as well.

---

Not that it couldn't work just as well... but the Spirit has no REAL connection to Jack (It is some weird suicide spirit)... While Ashi is a product of everyone Jack has ever helped.

Wait a minute

I think you should remember what kind of show Samurai Jack is. It's an action cartoon first and foremost. Comedy and Drama exist pretty much in equilibrium within the writing. Besides. It's still highly symbolic. The meaning is changed, but we've had quite a bit of Jack in his own head thus far.

I think arguing that Samurai Jack is a stupid show... isn't a reasonable argument.

"It is a cartoon, and an action show. It cannot possibly show psychology!"

In short, shame on you for not appreciating--for not even recognizing--the fully realized and beautifully choreographed dance of Jack's (emotional) pivotal moment. Man, this episode was art--From Ep. 1-6, Jack's emotional journey has been one of the most compelling I have ever had the pleasure to watch, the whole series is art on a level not commonly aired on tv... and it's just over your head, dude. Way over.

So are you saying that my words aren't necessarily how you feel? How odd isn't it?

Diana Troy do you have anything to say about this?

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Neonivek, you annoy the shit out of me like no other Bay12er.

You miss all the nuances of Season 5 of Samurai Jack and you harshly criticize some of the smallest and least relevant aspects of the show, in detail. Not to mention your extremely shallow comparisons to both anime and these boring, stereotypical tropes that really do miss the mark on understanding the character's human struggles. Symbolism is the gateway into the mind of the characters, it is anything but disconnect--and again, you're wrong. The symbolism is pretty upfront about Jack's knowing involvement in his acceptance of the fact he has lost his way and his willful return to his quest-proper to defeat Aku. Bitch, YOU ARE SEEING THE CHARACTER GO THROUGH SOMETHING, HOW EFFING DENSE CAN YOU BE!?

I have to ask, I really do--do you really believe all the stuff you've said about Samurai Jack, or are you just trolling to rile me up?

EDIT: Neon, wtf are you even saying with that edit? You're so intentionally unclear and nebulous, it is incredibly frustrating.

[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ok then... Lets go through this!

You miss all the nuances of Season 5 of Samurai Jack and you harshly criticize some of the smallest and least relevant aspects of the show, in detail.

Yes, sorry I didn't go in detail every single bit of symbolism, metaphor, character drama, psychology, and all that... with every single post.

Not to mention your extremely shallow comparisons to both anime

My statement was that I was so used to watching anime I forgot what having the plot advance at a reasonable pace was like.

It was hardly a in depth analysis.

these boring, stereotypical tropes that really do miss the mark on understanding the character's human struggles.

You mean Show, don't tell? Or is this some other trope you are referring to?

Symbolism is the gateway into the mind of the characters, it is anything but disconnect--and again, you're wrong.

Affirmation is superior to inference. It is Filmography 101. Yet while we have been seeing Jack deal with these questions until then... It still feels cheapened overall. Especially since there was a LOT of build up to this spirit.

The symbolism is pretty upfront about Jack's knowing involvement in his acceptance of the fact he has lost his way and his willful return to his quest-proper to defeat Aku. Bitch, YOU ARE SEEING THE CHARACTER GO THROUGH SOMETHING, HOW EFFING DENSE CAN YOU BE!?

That isn't my issue. My issue is I would have preferred that the suicide spirit to... Not exist. To be a figment, representative, or purely metaphorical. It would have been a much stronger scene overall in my mind. (And yes I know who that spirit is meant to be a proxy of)

I have to ask, I really do--do you really believe all the stuff you've said about Samurai Jack, or are you just trolling to rile me up?

I dunno, your making a lot of what I believe up.

I mean it isn't terrible... but it is a disappointment.

EDIT: Neon, wtf are you even saying with that edit? You're so intentionally unclear and nebulous, it is incredibly frustrating

I dunno. I don't even know why we are fighting... Nothing makes sense here.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

This is what I'm talking about though. You make all these offhand remarks about things without bothering to defend them. You automatically assume that what ever YOU think is correct, despite being obviously contrarian--a point which I would be fine with if you just did the first thing I mentioned and pried deeper into what you say. Something, anything, to support your thesis statements. So many of these points here, you just SAY something, without arguing at all for WHY it is that way.

Here's an example. Though frankly, you haven't defended ANY of these points. Affirmation is superior to inference? Filmography 101? I think Wes Anderson might have something to say about that. And again, so vague. Give me an example. What would you change? WHY? As Andrew Stanton puts it, "Storytelling is the organized absence of information." To that end, WOULD the scene be stronger by having the Spirit Samurai purely a figment of Jack's imagination. Where is the tension then? Ashi just walks up and says "Yo, don't do it?" and Jack doesn't? How would Jack come to understand that his depression for lack of a better word is hurting the people he's sworn to protect and that suicide is the true dishonor? It's not like this scene is giving it away up front, SJ is a show that lets us put 2+2 together even though we know it's going to be 4.

I have to make up stuff you believe because you never ever explain yourself. Understand, that you ARE going to encounter resistance by just saying "Oh, this is part is bad." without explaining yourself at all. Which, by the way, is much different than merely saying "It's not my speed." If you make a point, be prepared to defend it, dude. I may not always be right, but my arguments are hella stronger than yours because you just don't say a thing at all.

[Neonivek]

Where is the tension then?

I don't know what you mean.

[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Something is bugging me about some of the comments in this argument... I swear they must be responding to previous post and maybe a weird comment I gotten after them...

It's the school of American Writing. Conflicts aren't interesting unless they're really, really brutal. As the old adage goes, torture your characters. Also, I'm inclined to agree--would it really be as interesting an EPISODE if everyone were treated fairly well? No, it'd probably be pretty boring.

Ahhh! Now I see that not responding to this earlier backfired (mostly because responding to it at the time was completely unimportant)

I somehow figured your "You don't know basic storytelling" was based on something.... but what about the anime? I mean I never really said Jack needed to be an anime or anything like that... but that comment is too specific.

I am not used to TV shows actually going places.

Well they do have to cram the entire season in 10 episodes.

Ohh my goodness!

Ok, man... seriously lay off. I knew this was familiar.

I am not anywhere close to as vague or "don't explain myself" as you are indicating (this time... THIS TIME!)

is much different than merely saying "It's not my speed."

Apparently not.

I think this puts the argument sufficiently to rest. Feel free to get your last word in (as my rule is the person to end an argument loses last word).

[Max™]

Then I'll end the argument: I come across as a contrarian a lot because I try to be nicer than my natural asshole level would have me behave. I do usually assume the other part(y/ies) is engaging in good faith, and unless it's deliberately meant to be vague for the sake of humor I dislike saying things which I am not prepared to support.

Neo, you may have noticed I don't get involved in back and forths with you, but maybe you haven't, either way, there's a reason for this: you act like people know your position and argument, even when you didn't write down key portions of it yet, but you almost seem to enjoy continuing onward without confirming or even trying to explain to others that they aren't actually responding in a fashion which is relevant to what you mean because that bit was left out.

The scoop bearded one is frustrated, understandably it appears from reading up thread a little bit. Now, I'm looking in from the outside here, but it seemed like you were making non sequiturs until that very last post where you went back to a much earlier post and gave something that might be an explanation of sorts, but an explanation for what is not clear, even if all the information was present.

[Neonivek]

NVM, not a good idea to make long posts right now.

[Comrade P.]

As you may have noticed, I'm not taking any part in the argument. Because of this, I feel entitled to point out that Neonivek's manner of excessive use of ellipsis is rather irritating.

[Ellipsis] usually indicates an intentional omission of a word, sentence, or whole section from a text without altering its original meaning

And you just replace commas, colons, semicolons and periods with it on a whim. I used to make that mistake, too, until the same was pointed out to me in a similar fashion.

This is not a personal attack. No offence meant.

[Neonivek]

I have... issues with grammar. Lets just say that my use of periods and commas is not altogether... voluntary. So unfortunately there isn't much I can do in that respect.

I tend to use ellipsis to represent where I take natural pauses, as if I was actually speaking.

Though I've noticed that often times those are where commas would often be.

[Jimmy]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)