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[knutor]

That cumbersome military alert window strikes again.  That is really unuserfriendly.  The way it works is this..

Ya got 2 choices.  Inactive AND Active/training, that's IT.  Those two choices cannot be deleted.  They are not alert states, however new alert states show up in the same column, below them.  A squad is either Inactive or Active/training.  Two squad states exist.  Not sure why Toady choose to confuse alert states with squad states.  Theres more going on in this alerts menu than just squads... 

The A next the squad represents if it is Active/training.

Reset things in the alerts menu back to the way they were, remove all your custom alert states that show up underneathe that first borked up column.  Everyone you can remove, you won't be able to remove Inactive and Active/Training.  You'll have just those two, squad states left.  Inactive AND Active/training, left.  Got that?

Now use the arrow to go over to the Archer squad.  Mines oddly enough called The Virginal Palisades, and make sure, double dog sure, an A is next to it.  Is there an A next to it?  That A represents which of the ONLY TWO squad state choices is chosen.  See the first column, again...  Inactive AND Active/Training.  There can never be more, no matter what logic tells you.

You want a highlighted A next to all the Squad at ALL times.  Got it?  No reason to have a soldier without a weapon. 

Any new alerts are alert STATES, not squad STATES.  There are only two squad STATES.  Why alert STATES  go in that same column, I'll never know.  Toady prolly thinks, Brevity.  Makes sense to him, I guess.  Not me.  I see Toady added a popup, now in version 10, in here too.  But he left that convoluted tabs and columns spreadsheet go.  Damnit.  That military alerts panel is so hard to read.

Too much going on in there...  If ya ask me.  Take care, Knutor

[WCG]

Ya got 2 choices.  Inactive AND Active/training, that's IT.  Those two choices cannot be deleted.  They are not alert states, however new alert states show up in the same column, below them.

Jeebus! And I thought I finally understood the military screen!

Do you mean to tell me that there's an "active/training" alert and an "active/training" squad setting, and that they're different things? Does Toady deliberately try to make this as confusing as possible?

Thanks, Knutor. I'll check it out next time I play. I might have changed something by accident.

Hmm,... but how do you change these? Note that when I changed my squads' schedule to patrol instead of defend burrow, they became military again. I didn't change anything other than that, either, so it's hard to imagine that I accidentally changed this other setting back again, too.

But I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip!

[WCG]

A squad is either Inactive or Active/training.  Two squad states exist.  Not sure why Toady choose to confuse alert states with squad states.

Could you explain this again, please, Knutor? I have no idea where this second "Active/training" setting is supposed to be. All I see are the alerts. (And none of mine say "Active/training" since I changed the names of all of them.)

I checked the squad menu, too, but I don't see anything I missed there.

I understood you to say that there were "Inactive" and "Active/training" squad states in addition to the alerts? But if so, I can't find them anywhere.

I guess I don't understand what you're talking about. Certainly, there's an "A" next to the alert I've chosen for each squad. If there's a different setting somewhere else, I don't know where it might be.

[greycat]

I am not at all convinced that Knutor's explanation is correct.  Nevertheless, I cannot dismiss it out of hand.

My understanding is that there are two "alerts" created by default: Inactive and Active/Training.  You can also create additional alerts.  You can also change what orders are followed by a given squad, in a given month of the year, in either of these alerts, or in your own new custom alerts.

So far so good, right?  But alerts are tied to months.  They are the passive orders that a squad follows at the start of a new month.  You want your marksman squad to patrol the wall next month?  OK, no problem!  You either change their orders in the Active/Training alert for next month, or you make a new alert that has such orders, and you set them to that alert, and then you wait for next month to happen.  Then they'll follow the new alert's orders.  You want them to patrol the wall right now?  Too bad.  They're already training this month.

To the best of my knowledge, changing alert in the middle of a month has never been a reliable tool for moving your military to a needed position.  As WCG has noted, sometimes when you change alerts, your dwarves get very, very confused.  This may be a bug; I haven't looked at it very deeply.  I simply noted that it was not a reliable tool, and then went with other tools that performed as expected.  Much like WCG, I noted that issuing a station order is extremely reliable, so that's what I use when I need to get another squad up on the walls right away.

[knutor]

Yup.  Yup.  Yup.  Gonna use active for Active/Training, for the sake of simplicity from here on out.

The way the squad menu, toggles active and inactive, with the t key, is that it also allows for daisy chaining the two base states along with these custom alert states.   So in addition to putting the squad on active or on inactive, we can also put a squad on a custom, alert state, which can or cannot change their squad state.

This is a nested mess, in my opinion.  Especially that idea of hanging a flag CIV where ever ya last clicked or highlighted.  So many times that CIV has moved on me, causing unspeakable catastrophies.  That setting should not be a flag.  Why it looks like an afterthought, doesn't it? 

The military alert window allows for complexity in design at the cost of ease of use, and user friendlieness. 

Clearly designed as an interface to fit the problem, a spreadsheat to include all variables, even the unimaginably un-needed, not a 'user' interface for use.  Its just an interface.  What kind of users are expected to pick it up out of the box and 'use it' is anyones guess.  Mutant aliens?

It does work, however.  Please don't remind me of that, I know.  And I'm not angry, I use it all the time, but like the OP, I had to ask these exact questions.  Haven't we seen them asked often enough, please Toad, ad some ease of use to these alert panels.  Thanks, Knutor

[WCG]

Much like WCG, I noted that issuing a station order is extremely reliable, so that's what I use when I need to get another squad up on the walls right away.

Actually, no, I don't find it that useful. Here's my problem - one of my problems - with the military screen:  Squad orders seem to work great for melee fighters. It's quick. It's easy. No problem.

For marksdwarves, though, they just will not stand where I tell them to stand. So they end up one square away from where they can shoot through fortifications and end up completely useless for anything. Civilian dwarves can see enemies through fortifications from miles away - figuratively - but marksdwarves seem completely blind unless they are right next to the fortification.

So what do I have to do if enemies are coming from a certain direction and I want my marksdwarves to shoot them? I can have them "Patrol" the area, though they still won't walk next to the fortifications. Nevertheless, every so often, one will accidentally get close enough to shoot - and will usually stay there, shooting, at least for awhile.

But one time, part of my squad started patrolling the wrong z-level! Well, that's only happened once, so far.

And yes, I could have made my shooting gallery just one square wide, but that slows down my masons who build it (who often go way out of their way if someone else is using that path). And frankly, it doesn't look right, either.

"Defend Burrow" worked better, at least until the last time I tried it. I could make a burrow right snug along the fortifications, and my dwarves would go there with no problem.

However, unlike the "Station" orders, I can't do that from the squad menu. Sure, I can set up separate alerts for "Defend Burrow" (that is, I could, before it started turning all my marksdwarves into civilians) or "Patrolling." But I don't want them in the same place every time.

So, to send my dwarves to the east side of the compound, instead of the west, I have to go in and manually change their schedule for every month for every squad separately. This is every time I want to use them!

It's far worse for patrolling, of course, because I have to set up a separate patrol each time. When "Defend Burrow" was working for me, I could just move the burrow. Especially for relatively minor changes, that was easy - just chop off a bit of the burrow on one side and extend it a bit more on the other.

Now, "Defend Burrow" just instantly dismisses all of my marksdwarves, so I can't seem to use that, either. So every military engagement ends up as a nightmare of micromanagement, at least for my marksdwarves. Every time I want to move them somewhere else, I have to set up a new patrol route, change their schedule for every month (because, otherwise, the month is liable to change on me), and do that separately for each squad. Just to get them to shoot southwest instead of west!

(Note that I've got a very large compound. My fortifications aren't completed yet, but even if they were, having them patrol the entire thing every time would end up with the enemies in my lap before my marksdwarves ever got around to where they needed to go.)

[knutor]

When you order, 'Defend Burrow' from the scheduling window, do you proceed to choose the burrow to defend, from the list directly under that o-order, then hightlight it with secondary select keys, and then SHIFT+ENTER, after secondary selecting and after placing the desired number of troops from that squad to do the order? 

Or do you leave it set to 'Defend Burrow' without a burrow chosen?  Not sure, but wouldn't they just drop the order if they couldn't comply and go back to off duty booze drinking?  Could that be what your facing?  Sincerely, Knutor

[Werdna]

Simple alternative:  design archer fortifications in such a way that there is absolutely no other possible place to stand, except next to a fortification.  Surround them with solid walls or solid air, and station orders will place them exactly where you want. 

My standard archer platform is a 1x10 walkway with a down stair at one end, and a dead-end at the other, placed a z-level or two above the killing zone.  The 1x10 walkway has fortifications on at least one side, maybe both (I like to build them over the invasion path, to catch them coming and going).  It is otherwise surrounded by air.  I issue a Station order (or make a Patrol point) at the last tile at the dead end.  There's simply no other place to stand, besides in the walkway, when I issue the order.  I don't need to fiddle with burrows at all.

I usually split my marksdwarves into recruits and elites. The recruit squad(s) is assigned bone/wooden bolts for both training and combat, and the elite squad is assigned just metal bolts for combat only. The elite squad isn't even assigned an archery range but they can still train in a barracks. This and live combat are more than enough to level them up, and there seems little advantage in really high ranged skills anyway, unlike melee skills.

Ditto.

[knutor]

1x10 Stationed troops, have the drawback of collision and falls once the elites arrive and plink ya right back through that murderhole.  While burrowed will still fall off stuff, they will not have to be forced upon a ledge, to belly up to the slits.  They can also negotiate their way back and forth, and reach out 1 block beyond the burrow, to restock themselves, with food and drink.  Their pets will engage if an exit exists, while they comfortably stay in the burrow.  That won't happen with station.  Pet stays stationed, too.

Station order will not prevent them from leaving to chase or melee a troll, while dangers still exist outside if there is a way out, like when you send those melees out to beat on something injured.

I prefer to fiddle with burrows, the nice thing is, ya just need one, and you can paint blocks for it all over the place, angled or adjacent the slit.  Your squad will spread out on its own to occupy all the 1x1 burrow parts. I only use one burrow, and a paint a bunch of 1x1 placeholders.  To quote a legendary forum poster, Werdna, one divided up burrow prevents the need to fiddle with waypoints.  A squad of 10 marksdwarfs will spread out and fill 4 1x1 murderholes when activated.   20 will spread out and reach 8-10 1x1 murderholes. 

My archer platforms are in the four corners of my fortress.  3x3 covered and painted blocks with food and ammo.  With two opposing corners of the 3x3, 2 - 1x1 murderhole burrows.  So I have 8 possible bellies pressed up to 8 possible 1x1 fortification.  These here marksdwarf squads are inactive the majority of the time.. doing individual training on an archery target, to raise their archery skills, and prevent rust.  When danger comes, I activate them, and they all go to the fortress corners and belly up. 

Sometimes I send them outside to mop up, but usually they just sit back and plink.  Not often.  Those very far corner merlons I try to keep solid 1x1 walls, to give them a little cover vs elites.  By that time, I'll have 30 marksdwarfs manning 8 1x1 burrows.  That's a lot of showering hawktails.  Once I learn the general invasion paths of invaders, I snip and adjust my merlons, to provide adequate camoflauge and kill lanes.  Just like snipping branches from my big buck tree stand.  Cannot have that bullet ricochet.  HEH!

Just gotta do one thing.  Remember to toggle them off inactive.    And with me, remembering aint all that easy.  HEH!  Give Defend Burrow another try.  I used to use Station too.   But not going back now, far more effort and fiddling necessary to do a Station setup than Defend Burrow.  You not setting anyone a citizen of these burrows.  If ya have any questions fire away.  Sincerely, Knutor

[WCG]

When you order, 'Defend Burrow' from the scheduling window, do you proceed to choose the burrow to defend, from the list directly under that o-order, then highlight it with secondary select keys, and then SHIFT+ENTER, after secondary selecting and after placing the desired number of troops from that squad to do the order? 

Yes. That's not the problem. Trust me, that's the first place I checked.

And note that I tried it several times, with different alerts, even different burrows. It worked earlier in my fort, but not now.

Simple alternative:  design archer fortifications in such a way that there is absolutely no other possible place to stand, except next to a fortification.  Surround them with solid walls or solid air, and station orders will place them exactly where you want. 

I really don't like that, mostly for aesthetic reasons. And I'd have to remove a lot of what I've already built in order to change things enough. That might be OK later, but I'm still trying to complete my second story level.

I prefer to fiddle with burrows, the nice thing is, ya just need one, and you can paint blocks for it all over the place, angled or adjacent the slit.

Yes, that was my point earlier. "Defend burrow" was the ONLY military setting that really worked for me. So now that it doesn't work - for me, at least - that's been really disappointing.

Just gotta do one thing.  Remember to toggle them off inactive. 

I still don't know what you mean by that. How do you "toggle them off inactive"?

They're set to an alert that gives them orders, if that's what you mean. Sorry, but I never did understand what you were trying to say previously. If there's another "inactive" setting, I don't know where that is.

Thanks.

[Werdna]

No need to get snippy with the replies K.  I simply offered an alternative.  Your design sounds perfectly fine, I am simply pointing out that simple fort design can also solve the problem, if one is inclined to avoid the military menu.     I've been playing with the Fortress Defense mod for the past few years, so I believe in my method as well. 

1x10 Stationed troops, have the drawback of collision and falls once the elites arrive and plink ya right back through that murderhole.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  There are no collision or falls, because there is nowhere to fall.  The 1x10 standing platform is surrounded by fortifications or walls (when I said surrounding air, I meant on the other side of the fortifications).  Elites Archers are completely irrelevant to either design - they are deadly to any and all archers, and require their own separate handling (bridges as blinds, dummy targets, etc).  Elite Archers should never be given the chance to fire on Marksdwarves (and if they can, my money would be on the Elite Archer, vs any typical dwarf archer's low Dodge skill).

Station order will not prevent them from leaving to chase or melee a troll, while dangers still exist outside if there is a way out, like when you send those melees out to beat on something injured.

If they are leaving to chase an enemy, the platform is designed poorly.  The platform should have no direct path to the kill zone.  My platforms go back into guts of the fort, and I've never had a problem with archers leaving their posts to take the long route to the kill zone.  I don't assign my archers war animals, those go to my melee guys to soak up blows intended for them.

One question regarding the burrow method - how do they reload, if they are confined to the murder holes?  Marksdwarves don't reload when in sight of the enemy.  I don't always use the Station method, I also use Patrol for heavy sieges where reloading is necessary, and Patrol is used specifically to solve the reloading issue.  That's the only reason to set up waypoints, and I believe you'd also need to set up waypoints in order to Patrol (to get them away from LoS of the enemy) to reload. If you are certain you've got a method to make marksdwarves reload via burrow, then I would urge you to ressurect this thread with your findings.  Reloading has always been a major bugbear of marksdwarf-use.

I still don't know what you mean by that. How do you "toggle them off inactive"?

A squad can only be active in one alert.  By Active he means "the squad has an 'A' next to it, with the Active/Training alert selected (or any alert besides Inactive), in the Alerts screen".  When you first create a squad, they default to having their 'A' in the Inactive alert - he's saying to remember to move their 'A' to the active alert. 

It's probably the #1 reason behind all the threads on 'my military won't train/trains too slow!' - people don't know to move the squads' 'A' out of the Inactive alert, and even vet players regularly forget when making a new squad.

[knutor]

@Werdna, sorry if I came across snippy.  I'm suffering a similar problems as WCG, I think.  Or suffered it.  My strategy worked in the previous version.  07, but doesn't seem to work in 10.  I may have to do stations also now.  Lost half my markdwarfs last night to a minotaur, because when I took them off inactive(individual training) in the squad window, with t, they all ran outside, instead of following their orders immediately, to go to their murderholes.  No idea why that happened, except possibly to restock.  I'm guessing they wanted to pickup a fired bolt from the distant edge of the map, instead of their convienent burrow ammo pile.  *shrug*  I had done a sweeping corner to far corner, reclaim, right before the megabeast minotaur showed up.  Well not right before, but before it. *shrug*

@WCG, I toggle inactive/active, with t, in the squad window.  Unfortunately, it also toggles past any custom alert states and in earlier revisions that bogus-bugged ------- null state.  Since this isn't a paused state change, I have no idea whats going on.  If they are also doing those customs or going right to inactive.  That's where I mainly toggle my inactive/active state at.  Prolly not the best way to do it, but its what I adapted into using.  For the sake of switching from having them follow active/training orders to inactive/individual training.  It has worked for me up to now.  I'm thinking this issue with them dropping gear has something to do with this unpaused state change, with t.  As thats what they, they do whenever toggled to inactive, maybe not immediately, but they do it.  And I'm not so sure they drop their gear as much as just change their icon to civilian and reboot their own AI checks and balances.  Hard to tell, now with these clothing fixes. 

I'll have to observer closer the goings and comings of an individual soldiers.  Something I'm having a ton of fun doing.  This F-follow key is nice.  Its just a matter of isolating them from the pack for observation.  Hope you figured out your issue.  I believe I nailed mine with that corner to corner reclaim.  I prolly shouldn't do that anymore.  But I get greedy, and see all those inactive fellas, just begging for work, and well.. you know. Knutor

[WCG]

@WCG, I toggle inactive/active, with t, in the squad window.  Unfortunately, it also toggles past any custom alert states and in earlier revisions that bogus-bugged ------- null state.

OK. I never use that command in the squad window. But it's the same thing as the military alerts menu, then? It's just bugged? Well, as I say, I never use it, anyway. (Not usually, at least. But I might have tried it one time. If it's bugged, that might be one of my problems.)

And, actually, I don't ever set my military dwarves to "inactive." I used to schedule some downtime in their training schedule, but I don't even do that anymore (since they were still getting bad thoughts from long patrol duty). Maybe that's changed in the newest versions - I hope it is! - but I'm still using 34.07.

[knutor]

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[knutor]

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