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Author Topic: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: No new update...yet  (Read 270663 times)

IndigoFenix

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.2)
« Reply #150 on: August 11, 2012, 03:26:48 pm »

So I'm trying to get the secrets to show up by using two new races who will function as 'secret-keepers': Star Sprites and Shamans (Tribe of Ancients, Tribe of Darkness, Merlon and Co., Count Bleck).  Trouble is, I want them to be rare and preferably cave-dwellers (Shamans may occasionally move into cities in small numbers), and they don't seem to form temples unless there's a lot of them building cities.  I once saw them build a temple in a cave, but it's not a normal occurrence (I think there needs to be some kind of critical number before they start building temples, and somehow I ended up with over 1000 in one cave... that would have been a sight to see in-game!)  Is there any way to encourage a minority race to build temples, or is there a way to create teachable secrets through methods other than slabs or demons?

EmeraldWind

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.2)
« Reply #151 on: August 11, 2012, 11:48:30 pm »

Try making the Shamans have a secret on them. (If it works you might want to create a caste system from Shamans where certain Shaman castes have different secrets. I know you don't like castes very much, but Paper Mario actually supports this as the names of the Shamans are dictated by their profession and therefore their powers.) And make sure they can write books.

They should be able to write down the secrets they know of or teach them to apprentices. As long as the secrets have this group of tags:
Code: [Select]
[IS_SECRET:MUNDANE_RESEARCH_POSSIBLE]
[IS_SECRET:MUNDANE_TEACHING_POSSIBLE]
[IS_SECRET:MUNDANE_RECORDING_POSSIBLE:objects/text/book_instruction.txt:objects/text/secret_death.txt]
I think you have that on secrets where that is necessary already.

This way someone will eventually write a book with the secret in it.

The only problems are with this is they might go all necromancer and build towers in the wilderness, not sure. (Though since they can't create buddies this shouldn't happen.) Also this might create a side problem that the apprentices never happen because a tower is never established.

And the other problem is that Shamans and Star Sprites could end up weirdly powerful, but I don't see that as a big problem.

All in all there is a little bit of science needed here to figure out what would happen. Cuz I've never seen a non-ruler or non-necromancer in a tower write books. But I noticed demon koopas write when they are in charge, so what ever causes them to write could also be something to look into.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.2)
« Reply #152 on: August 12, 2012, 12:43:14 pm »

I was toying around with various methods of encouraging secret production, and found something interesting by accident.  Apparently, making a couple of 'major curse' interactions makes people a LOT more fond of building temples, causing the world to become practically choked with secret slabs.  Huh.

So that seems to be working now.  I didn't want to make even rare castes of Shamans too overpowered, since they're going to be playable in adventure mode.  They are going to get some magic of their own though, so don't worry about that.

Now I just need to figure out how to get them to teach their secrets to members of other races.  I've seen that happen quite a bit in earlier versions when Koopas had a pantheon and learned magic, but Shamans don't seem to like to share.  They need to be necromancers, you said?  Or do I have to make them babysnatchers as well?

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.2)
« Reply #153 on: August 13, 2012, 12:48:48 am »

I suggested the experiment to see if Shamans would write, but I think writing is limited to leaders and necromancers (and leaders only under certain circumstances, like demons or the demon koopas which I assume is the megabeast token).

Babysnatching I think is unrelated.

Necromancy still requires a tower before they will write though. So I don't think that is an option either.
But then again... you seen creatures learn magic from koopas?
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.2)
« Reply #154 on: August 13, 2012, 11:59:28 am »

In an earlier version, when all of the races had pantheons, yes - and it wasn't just necromancy either.  They would even teach flamethrowing and polymorphing, if they happened to know it.  However, necromancers teaching necromancy was by far the most common occurrence.

The way I think it works is: Creature learns necromancy (or any other secret capable of raising the dead) by reading a slab given by a god or a book written by a demon.  Necromancer produces zombies, which build a tower.  Other creatures throughout the world who become obsessed with their own mortality seek out the tower, and begin studying under one of the other secret-keepers living there, and can learn any teachable secret from them - also, their species and original entity's values appear to be irrelevant; clearly wizards consider themselves to be a race unto themselves.  Since there has to be at least one necromancer to start the tower in the first place, necromancy is the most common secret spread around through tower-dwellers; even if a creature elsewhere in the world learns a non-necro secret, they won't set out for the tower and start teaching, because they weren't obsessed with their own mortality.  However, since it isn't unheard of for a single individual to study multiple secrets, sometimes a tower will be built by a cross-disciplinary necro, who can then teach any one of his collected secrets to the other tower-dwellers.

I think I'm going to lump a bunch of the secrets together and make a new kind of zombie-maker based on magikoopas.  The non-magikoopa related secrets can be taught through other means.  Hmm... If I make a secret that teaches new abilities over the course of a creature's life, maybe I could make it that the older wizards know more spells.  Not sure how worldgen would react to the timescale of the process, though, since all of the secrets we've seen so far take effect immediately.  Science time!

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.2)
« Reply #155 on: August 15, 2012, 03:50:47 pm »

Hm, is that why the secrets weren't showing up?  I've seen firebrand and polymorph secrets show up, but there are some that just don't seem to appear.  I guess it makes sense that you need to have a race worshiping a god before it creates a slab, since DF gods are apparently created by their worshipers.  Does that mean that you need to have a civ that has a religion aligned with the sphere of the given secret before a slab for that secret will be sent?

I was trying to get some of the races to worship star sprites, but since that doesn't seem to work I guess I'll have to revert them back to worshiping gods made in their own image.  Don't want all those secrets to go to waste, after all.

I doubt that Demon Koopas will create secret books - they aren't technically demons, but megabeasts, and I guess megabeasts aren't included in whatever procedure enables demons to generate secrets.
Megabeasts can teach secrets they're aligned with when worshipped. Bronze Colossuses can teach WAR secrets, dragons could teach fire ones. The cool thing is the megabeast doesn't even have to be able to speak (though if you give it POWER and let it speak it often ends up worshipped[like demons]).
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.21)
« Reply #156 on: August 17, 2012, 10:46:34 am »

New update... but see disclaimer at the bottom.

The purpose of this update was to get the secrets working, and yes, they are certainly working.  Two new races have been added as secret-keepers: Shamans and Star Sprites.  Both are reclusive races who live mainly in caves, although you'll occasionally come across a city-dwelling Shaman.  Both have some very unusual properties:

Shamans are born with the ability to cast powerful lightning and ice spells, and are naturally resistant to heat and cold attacks, though they tend to be physically fragile.  They can also improve their odds of victory by placing curses on their enemies (much like a mummy's curse, but temporary) and charms on themselves or their allies (which has the opposite affect).  They make excellent allies, though adventuring alone as one may be a bit of  a challenge due to their delicacy.

Star Sprites are weak on their own, but they have the ability to give their allies the ability to perform support techniques on them by wishing.  Wishing on a Star Sprite greatly increases all of its physical stats, and if a Star Sprite falls in battle, it can be wished back to life as long as its allies are still standing.  You can't play as one, but if you're lucky enough to get one as an ally, it will serve you well.

As for the secrets themselves: Teleportation and Polymorphing have been merged into a new secret, Magic, which gets a damaging spell as well.  Polymorphing has been changed; it is now a single attack that has one of several effects.  It has a small chance of transforming the victim into a mushroom (which is basically game over), but will usually trap them in an egg for a short time instead.  When the egg hatches, there is a reasonable chance of coming out as a random creature, generally of the small and weak variety, although if you're lucky, you might turn into a Toad, Koopa, or even a Yoshi.  If you're really unlucky, you might hatch as a Cheep Cheep instead.

Firebrand and Thunderhand have been improved somewhat: Firebrand gains a 'Fire Finale' attack which gives you a short period of time to basically crispy-fry everything in the immediate area (but can only be used once in a decent amount of time), and Thunderhand users can now electrically charge their allies, granting them a short-range electrical attack as well.  In addition, several creatures have been given a weakness to electric attacks, including Chomps, Belomes, and Smithy Units in tank form.  Also Metal Elementals, which is now a new creature, by the way (you can become one through a 'curse').

Speaking of which, becoming a Tanooki or a giant is now considered curse.  And in homage to their original appearance, people can acquire the Thunderhand and Firebrand techniques by defiling temples as well.  I think some sacrilege is in order.

People weren't dying enough in worldgen, so I added two new megabeasts: Fryguys and Dragons.  Mushroom World dragons are quite different from vanilla DF dragons - they can only breathe regular fire, but are quite durable and hard to make bleed.  They also have a surprise in store for anyone who tries to get rid of them by trapping them in a magma pit.  In homage to the Czar Dragon, Bonetail, and Bone Dragons, larger dragons (a bit larger than around half the size of an elephant, which should start appearing in worldgen at around the year 100) can survive having their flesh boiled away, and will emerge from the magma as a fierce skeletal dragon that can no longer breathe fire, but will no longer bleed or feel pain; the only way to kill one is by removing the head or destroying the brain.

Now for the disclaimer: I am not sure that this version actually works.  I've been seeing bugs that make no sense at all, random crashes when loading the raws for any purpose, but only sometimes, and if you return to the menu screen it always happens if you try a new mode without exiting, also there have been weird characters showing up in place of the regular non-alphanumeric characters... Oh, and intangible creatures have joined the impossibly hard ones, and I didn't put any Metal or Vanish caps into the game (if only there was a way to harness these bugs!).  The raws all check out and there is nothing in the errorlog, so I'm assuming that this is just some bizarre effect specific to my computer, but I'd like some confirmation from testers that it actually works properly on other computers.  On that note, has anyone else ever encountered the unbreakable bandits that I've mentioned in the bugs?

Have fun, and let me know if this thing works please!

Korbac

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.21)
« Reply #157 on: August 18, 2012, 07:22:11 pm »

I pasted this over a fresh install. Worldgen crashes. I have tried doing various things, but... no no. :(
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GaxkangtheUnbound

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.21)
« Reply #158 on: August 18, 2012, 07:43:00 pm »

I pasted this over a fresh install. Worldgen crashes. I have tried doing various things, but... no no. :(
To quote the first post:
Quote from: IndigoFenix
Bugs and possible issues:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, could you perhaps see if your error log is generating anything odd?
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EmeraldWind

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.21)
« Reply #159 on: August 19, 2012, 01:06:40 am »

Mine is crashing trying to get to worldgen. As soon as I pick Create a new world.
It also immediately crashes if I try a command line world gen.

I'm getting no errors and all I did was copy these over to the DF without any vanilla creatures (save for the wagons).

I'm doing some tinkering to try and see where the root of the problem is... and it is actually the dragon doing it...

Weird... I remove the dragon and it works... I've looked through the dragon entry and I'm not seeing anything wrong with the standard dragon stuff, so I'm assuming it is either the dragon itself (the tissue stuff) or the unique body you created for it. I'm not familiar enough with the body details and tissue stuff to figure out if there's something wrong.

But onto other problems, the dragonless world genned, but now it is crashing when I go to look in legends or play. I genned a smaller world and it started to give me similar problems but came up on the second try. I'm going to try and gen a few more, but another thing I noticed:

The error log complains with this: "Impoverished Word Selector" while genning a world. It doesn't seem to be a big issue, it is the only error in the log (but it is there several times).

On topic though,
I genned a third world that had slabs. An angry sun created a slab.
It was worshipped by star sprites and was killed by a Yoshi named Camela Punchnuts. I think it was able to create the slab due to all the sprites worshiping it. Surprisingly all the slabs were found by either star sprites or shamans. Which actually gets the slabs to some interesting areas instead of being put into towers they end up in dungeons, sewers, and caves. Unless it gives necromancer powers... Star Sprite Necromancer made me laugh a little.

A different angry sun lived in a place called Subordinate Hell. His first actions were to piss off the nations: The Familial Cremation, The Unspeakable Burns, The Mighty Sun,  and The Devious Burn. Somehow I think these guys named their civs thanks to this guy.

So basically, my trouble seemed to stem from the dragon. But I still noticed the weird lock downs when you switch modes, which I got with the previous version. And it sometimes crashes when I try to play a world. It might give me trouble for a bit, but it eventually loads it. I'm not sure what would cause this sometimes works sometimes doesn't besides maybe a RAM overflow...

Also as an off the wall suggestion. I think you should give the Yoshi a language where every word is "yoshi". This was a sort of joke in SMRPG and in that one Nintendo Power comic where the Yoshi speak a full language that just sounds like them saying "yoshi" to us. Granted this would end up with Yoshi all appearing to have one name if named in their own language and their titles would look bizzare: "Yoshi Yoshiyoshi Yoshiyoshiyoshi" Still kind of funny though.
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Korbac

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.21)
« Reply #160 on: August 19, 2012, 11:12:38 am »

I pasted this over a fresh install. Worldgen crashes. I have tried doing various things, but... no no. :(
To quote the first post:
Quote from: IndigoFenix
Bugs and possible issues:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, could you perhaps see if your error log is generating anything odd?

Cheers bruv. It's crashing consistently though. :( Also, nothing in the error log. I'll try again later without the dragon as some people have suggested.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.21)
« Reply #161 on: August 19, 2012, 12:09:37 pm »

Darn.  Don't be so quick to judge the dragon, the reason why I thought it couldn't be the raws is that it didn't seem to be connected to any of the raws in particular, deleting any large amount of data would stabilize the game temporarially, but it would then grow unstable later... Is it even possible for a plain text file to be inperceptibly corrupted?  And more importantly, is there a way to fix it?  Worst case scenario, I guess I can try going back to the previous version and starting over... unfortunately my computer's in the shop, so I can't reupload it just yet.  Keep your old files on hand, I guess.

As for the other things... Most races have very 'thematic' naming styles, which can help you to recognize their civs at a glance.  I'm guessing that your fire-loving civ was probably created by Bob-Ombs.

BTW, wizards will create towers too, although you'll never actually see them raise the dead, because of the way that the game calculates syndrome effect time (that is, illogically).  That is, they should be learning necromancy 10 years after becoming a wizard (Fortress time) but worldgen apparently just recognizes them as zombie-makers and has them creating towers from the get-go.

As for languages, I actually had a few ideas for languages, including a Yoshi language that was mostly 'Yoshi' with some pat-perns, lum-buims, and woo-hoos mixed in, a Koopa language that was mainly repeating consonant-vowel pairs (noko, koko, muku, kaku, pata), and a Shy Guy language composed entirely of non-standard characters.  Unfortunately I don't have the patience to put together something like that, but if anyone else wants to, be my guest!

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the problems did start while I was testing out the dragon.  It certainly isn't causing problems in any standard way, but it isn't impossible that it could be the source of them, either through its non-standard traits or due to some kind of data corruption.  It'd be a shame if it was the problem, but try deleting it, maybe before loading it into the game in the first place, and see how it goes.

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I've had errorless worldgen crashes from the following:

1. Certain creatures.
2. Having CREATURE_ACTION interactions with HIST_STRINGs.

EmeraldWind

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Re: Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom: Major Mod (Update: Version 0.21)
« Reply #163 on: August 20, 2012, 12:01:06 am »

Darn.  Don't be so quick to judge the dragon, the reason why I thought it couldn't be the raws is that it didn't seem to be connected to any of the raws in particular, deleting any large amount of data would stabilize the game temporarially, but it would then grow unstable later... Is it even possible for a plain text file to be inperceptibly corrupted?  And more importantly, is there a way to fix it?  Worst case scenario, I guess I can try going back to the previous version and starting over... unfortunately my computer's in the shop, so I can't reupload it just yet.  Keep your old files on hand, I guess.

As for the other things... Most races have very 'thematic' naming styles, which can help you to recognize their civs at a glance.  I'm guessing that your fire-loving civ was probably created by Bob-Ombs.

BTW, wizards will create towers too, although you'll never actually see them raise the dead, because of the way that the game calculates syndrome effect time (that is, illogically).  That is, they should be learning necromancy 10 years after becoming a wizard (Fortress time) but worldgen apparently just recognizes them as zombie-makers and has them creating towers from the get-go.

As for languages, I actually had a few ideas for languages, including a Yoshi language that was mostly 'Yoshi' with some pat-perns, lum-buims, and woo-hoos mixed in, a Koopa language that was mainly repeating consonant-vowel pairs (noko, koko, muku, kaku, pata), and a Shy Guy language composed entirely of non-standard characters.  Unfortunately I don't have the patience to put together something like that, but if anyone else wants to, be my guest!

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the problems did start while I was testing out the dragon.  It certainly isn't causing problems in any standard way, but it isn't impossible that it could be the source of them, either through its non-standard traits or due to some kind of data corruption.  It'd be a shame if it was the problem, but try deleting it, maybe before loading it into the game in the first place, and see how it goes.

I was having trouble even getting world gen get to screen where I pick the parameters. I went through and removed the new additions and replaced them one at a time to narrow down the problem. The dragon was the last thing I tried. And I could gen worlds again afterwards. I tried looking over the specifics of the dragon, but the custom stuff you did is confusing and I'm not all that up to scratch on the body stuff.

Granted, the other problems seem to be something else entirely. The trouble loading genned worlds wasn't new to this version with me, but it seems to be more severe from what I noticed. The real problem is the fact the game seems to have no error outputting for whatever is going wrong. I'd like to at least see "Could not load file: xxxxxx.txt" or something to indicate what it was trying to do at the time it crashed. But that isn't your problem, but instead something Toady would need to put into the game.

The civ things were just me confirming it worked and some stuff that made me laugh.
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IndigoFenix

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After deleting the dragon, did the game gradually become as unstable as it was before?  If not, I'll presume that it's the source of the extreme crash tendency.  There isn't anything particularly strange or illogical in it (it's almost the same as any other creature in the end, but constructed from the bottom-up by adding layer upon layer so that it could have an actual spine that holds it together after its torso melts - DF spines are just considered another organ and don't actually connect anything).  Still, there's always room for surprise bugs.

The info on HIST_STRING creature actions could also be useful, and it's actually logical... if HIST_STRINGs are added to legends, and caused by ordinary creature actions, there's a reasonable possibility that certain events could cause a huge amount of strings to be added to legends, possibly causing RAM overflow.  I can't remember if there are any such actions in this mod, but I did just add/change a whole lot of interactions so it's not impossible.  Some other chain-reactive effects may also cause RAM overflow, though I don't think that there's anything in this mod that's more 'catchy' than regular werecreatures.  It's a start though.

Unbreakable and intangible bandits are still a mystery.  Since I now know it isn't a food item effect, what could possibly cause something like that?
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