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[Manveru Taurënér]

...
Not hypocritical nor arrogant?  Everything they have that isn't cloth is made of wood, yet they get butthurt over anyone else using much wood.  And before they quit saying anything at all, they'd presume to come in and make demands and restrictions on other races' behavior in their own homes, as if it was their gods-given right.

It was confirmed by Toady or Threetoe that elves get their wood as "gifts" from the trees somehow, and never actually harm any trees to get it :>

[weenog]

This was more interesting than the rest of the discussion:

I don't play D&D because my pastor said it's the devil's game.*
_{*just kidding, my mom told me that}

d&d was proclaimed to be evil (yes it actually was) for the same reason as rock and roll, and computer games were. It was new entertainment that teenagers liked, and therefore it's bad. The fact that it has had devils on the cover of the books certainly didn't help either, but in the vast majority of d&d games the players are the good guys. It's just the DM that gets to be the evil overlord of the 9 hells.

Hmm, maybe I should stop DM'ing before I damn my immortal soul!


... personally I think World of Warcraft is much more likely to be the devil's game than d&d. I haven't heard of anyone getting addicted to d&d to the point of completely ruining their life.

As I understand it from certain painfully religious relatives, anything that's interesting in any way, shape or form is a tool of the devil.  It distracts you from reading the bible and kissing divine ass 24/7.

[Nyan Thousand]

...
Not hypocritical nor arrogant?  Everything they have that isn't cloth is made of wood, yet they get butthurt over anyone else using much wood.  And before they quit saying anything at all, they'd presume to come in and make demands and restrictions on other races' behavior in their own homes, as if it was their gods-given right.

It was confirmed by Toady or Threetoe that elves get their wood as "gifts" from the trees somehow, and never actually harm any trees to get it :>

Nope. Elves are dicks. They only use wood and cloth (scientifically proven to be the two worst materials in Dwarf Fortress) and they get offended when they get offered wood. That elven magic thing's a lie. Elves are just dicks. They're dicks and nobody likes them.

[Rtyh-C]

...and kill what they fuck.

Since when do elves kill trees?

[alexandertnt]

I was fortunate enough to never see that movie, but the ripples of disgust still circulating the internet are very visible. 

I saw both it, and the second movie (yep, there is another). The internet, in this rare instance, is quite rational. The second one isn't actually as bad, and almost was tolerable in parts. But painful in others...

I reject this notion of every writer having to follow the "original" concepts rules in any case. The more "different" ways of interpreting fantasy staples like elves and dwarves make things more interesting. I particularly like DFs interpretation of elves as fascist cannibals and not graceful and wise in their immortality but rather spiteful and wretched. 

At least, that's the way I see DF elves.

I agree. It is always more interesing when writers screw the standards and do something their own way.

Elves are just dicks. They're dicks and nobody likes them.

[CodexDraco]

I never understood the whole chaotic/good nonsense of D&D (though I didn't play it). I don't see Dwarves as evil (or good) they are just beings living in difficult times where there's no TV, penicilin or antidepresives. The mass sacrificing of kittens is sometimes perceived as evil but it's a rational and valid action and we humans do it IRL, thousands of cats, dogs and other animals are sacrificed everyday or otherwise they would spread diseases and other non-fun stuff.

Dwarves don't kill their own kind, they just pull a lever and then the nobles misteriously dissapear, nothing evil in that.

[weenog]

I never understood the whole chaotic/good nonsense of D&D (though I didn't play it).

"Lawful" and "Chaotic" are leftovers from alignment setups that didn't want to come right out and say "Good" and "Evil", but still wanted to use them.  They don't mean much anymore, except for a perpetual source of useless alignment threads.

[Dorfimedes]

Back to the original topic. Knowing the way dwarves deal with animal overpopulation and the way players tend to mass-draft immigrants into the military, it would most likely result in something that lies somewhere between A Modest Proposal, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and your run-of-the-mill cyberpunk dystopia.

Everyone would be drafted into the army to fight other nations for their precious resources, and would be turned into rations when they fall in battle, along with any enemy slain. Surplus people-patties would be sold to the private market at a rate determined by the size of the working class. If it is too small, they are made affordable, but taxed heavily. If it is too large the prices are increased to exorbitant heights so that only the wealthy may afford it (and taxed heavily), starving the peasantry so that more meat is produced and they don't further drain resources (see: holodomor). They are forced to accept starvation or enter into the military for the free rations. Peasantry caught stealing food, poaching wildlife or unlawfully butchering other citizens when honest alternatives were available are executed and converted into food. This is naturally seized by the government to sell back to the upper-class (TAXES), or sent back to the army if food becomes scarce. It is brutally efficient, and if anyone questions your meatocracy you can remind them that you're the one putting food in their mouths.

[Logic]

I really like how the entire basis of that society's economy has become dorf-meat.

[bluefox]

"Lawful" and "Chaotic" are leftovers from alignment setups that didn't want to come right out and say "Good" and "Evil", but still wanted to use them.  They don't mean much anymore, except for a perpetual source of useless alignment threads.

Have you *played* D&D? Or any roleplaying game whatsoever?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(role-playing_games)

Note that prior to fourth edition D&D, there's a sizable difference between what rulebooks say about being "Lawful" vs being "Good," and the differences between "Chaotic" vs "Evil." It was very possible (and in fact encouraged) to have a Chaotic Good rogue, for instance, who could easily join a party including a Lawful Good Paladin fighting against a Lawful Evil shadow priest.

After fourth edition, the extremely simplified spectrum fits "Lawful" as someone who extends "Good" to civilizations and worlds, and "Chaotic" is someone who does the same for "Evil."

[CodexDraco]

…

We are not talking about an Elf overpopulation you cannibal tree huger.

I don't see what's the problem with an overpopulated dwarf world. They can just create a few extra 10x10 plum helmet farms and feed the entire world. Eventually a kitten will suffer an unfortunate accident that will start a worldwide tantrum spiral that will decimate 80% of the world population. Problem solved.

[weenog]

"Lawful" and "Chaotic" are leftovers from alignment setups that didn't want to come right out and say "Good" and "Evil", but still wanted to use them.  They don't mean much anymore, except for a perpetual source of useless alignment threads.

Have you *played* D&D? Or any roleplaying game whatsoever?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(role-playing_games)

Note that prior to fourth edition D&D, there's a sizable difference between what rulebooks say about being "Lawful" vs being "Good," and the differences between "Chaotic" vs "Evil." It was very possible (and in fact encouraged) to have a Chaotic Good rogue, for instance, who could easily join a party including a Lawful Good Paladin fighting against a Lawful Evil shadow priest.

After fourth edition, the extremely simplified spectrum fits "Lawful" as someone who extends "Good" to civilizations and worlds, and "Chaotic" is someone who does the same for "Evil."

Only for about 15 years, now.  I know there's a sizable difference between what the rulebooks say about Lawful and Good, Chaotic and Evil.  I also know it's a bunch of inconsistent bullshit such that any behavior can be defined to fit anywhere on the Lawful-Chaotic axis, and often anywhere on the Good-Evil axis as well.  This is partly because Lawful and Chaotic are old ways of saying Good and Evil without actually saying them, and now that we actually have Good and Evil alignments, Lawful and Chaotic are pretty meaningless.  Unfortunately, grognards won't let them go, so we wind up with useless alignment threads as they take the redefinition attempts way too seriously.  Thanks for that, bluefox.

[612DwarfAvenue]

...
Not hypocritical nor arrogant?  Everything they have that isn't cloth is made of wood, yet they get butthurt over anyone else using much wood.  And before they quit saying anything at all, they'd presume to come in and make demands and restrictions on other races' behavior in their own homes, as if it was their gods-given right.

It was confirmed by Toady or Threetoe that elves get their wood as "gifts" from the trees somehow, and never actually harm any trees to get it :>

Trees give Elves wood. Oh, the possible innuendo in your post...

[Niveras]

Haven't read the thread, so might've been mentioned already, but given tantrum spirals, the civilization would almost certainly form cycles of population boom/civilization collapse, exactly like the aliens of Niven's The Mote In God's Eye.

Really, the parallels are quite strong.

[oven_baked]

I always assumed that Elves just sustainably managed forestry, and it's become so ingrained into their culture that when you cut down too many trees they urge you to "improve" yourself.

I'm still pretty sure that dwarfs would boom and bust, once a fort has exhausted it's mines it will either pierce HFS or just die out as dwarfs leave for new outposts.