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[Inarius]

Dwarves are Chaotic neutral with (depending on the situation and on the people) tendances to be evil.

They have no a priori and can do anything. The same dwarf can push a lever again and again, even if he knows and sees that it can kill his mother or father or child just in front of him.
And even if he will be mortified by his loss, he will also be happy to admire a "fine trap".
They make me think of Jan Jansen in Baldur's gate.

Even if their best friend is dead, they are able to take their clothes to put them in a stockpile before even bury him.
They don't fight for good, they can butcher kittens (and enjoy kitten biscuits), kill unicorns.
And their moral sense is quite relative. If dwarfnapped by goblins, they can become as evil as goblins.

[Manveru Taurënér]

One can't really say that all the truly evil things players do and command their dwarves to do means that dwarves in any way are evil in nature. Looking at the dwarven ethic raws they shouldn't really be evil naturally, and they most definitely aren't in the forts I run, so I think a neutral alignment is more accurate.

[Spinning Welshman]

I am familiar with the more well-known works of Tolkien, though I've avoided his more obscure stuff.  I like his ideas, but a man that can take three paragraphs describing the grass is a bit too wordy for my tastes.

Essentially, it goes like this, dwarves found moria, discover mithril, (candy) and become very rich off it. They dig deeper, mining out more and more, until they uncover a balrog (HFS) they're then pretty much wiped out in moria, and a few expeditions are later sent to see if moria can be repopulated, but they fail due to goblin infestations.

Honestly that's a pretty close approximation of many a DF forts fate. 

[weenog]

*facepalm*

The allusion to Tolkien's work was intentional.  I know about Moria, and the balrog (known as a "balor" in D&D parlance to avoid copyright infringement issues).  I suggested what Tolkien's dwarves actually did without mentioning him by name, to see if a certain someone would reject the behavior of his own dwarf model as undwarflike.

[Spinning Welshman]

*facepalm*

The allusion to Tolkien's work was intentional.  I know about Moria, and the balrog (known as a "balor" in D&D parlance to avoid copyright infringement issues).  I suggested what Tolkien's dwarves actually did without mentioning him by name, to see if a certain someone would reject the behavior of his own dwarf model as undwarflike.

Aha. Well I was assuming him to be a d&d fanatic, and as he was insisting on enforcing canon I mentioned tolkien, which I understand to be one of the inspirations for the whole d&d thing. I had guessed you would at least know the story of moria, the post was more to shove it down the throat of the guy claiming DF dwarves to be somehow incorrect. 

You method was more subtle however.

And yes I had considered the likely possibility that you were summarising moria as well, but I thought it was quite possible he wouldn't get it.

[weenog]

Maybe we should give up and use the dwarf from that one godawful D&D movie that even Jeremy Irons couldn't save, as our role model.

The problem with elves is they got no meat on 'em!  You gotta get a 250-lb dwarf woman, with facial hair you can hang onto! *air humps*

[Spinning Welshman]

Maybe we should give up and use the dwarf from that one godawful D&D movie that even Jeremy Irons couldn't save, as our role model.

The problem with elves is they got no meat on 'em!  You gotta get a 250-lb dwarf woman, with facial hair you can hang onto! *air humps*

I was fortunate enough to never see that movie, but the ripples of disgust still circulating the internet are very visible. 

I reject this notion of every writer having to follow the "original" concepts rules in any case. The more "different" ways of interpreting fantasy staples like elves and dwarves make things more interesting. I particularly like DFs interpretation of elves as fascist cannibals and not graceful and wise in their immortality but rather spiteful and wretched. 

At least, that's the way I see DF elves.

[Nyan Thousand]

... all dwarves are close to Tolkien's. Almost everything is. Tolkien practically invented high fantasy. You see some differences, sure. WoW goblins, for example, are true neutral/chaotic neutral creatures driven by money, and DF dwarves are generally dumber than their LotR counterparts, but they still follow general Tolkien-esque tropes, ranging from appearance to temperament. I'm pretty sure the only race that doesn't change all that much between portrayals are Humans (for obvious reasons).

As for the OP post, obviously, the answer involves magma. Sweet, sweet, magma.

[weenog]

Elves in DF strike me as a lot like elves in many other games and fantasy stories, except without the benefit of an elf-friendly narrator.  At the best of times they seem to be hypocritical, arrogant jerkwads who can't back up even half of the cool stuff they're credited with.  They get away with plenty of evil, or at least unpleasant, stuff because they're the designated good guys, even though they don't act it.

Consider the Combat entries for Elf and Goblin in the D&D 3.5 monster manual.

Elves are cautious warriors and take time to analyze their opponents and the location of the fight if at all possible, maximizing their advantage by using ambushes, snipers, and camouflage.  They prefer to fire from cover and retreat before they are found, repeating this maneuver until all of their enemies are dead.  They prefer longbows, shortbows, rapiers, and longswords.  In melee, elves are graceful and deadly, using complex maneuvers that are beautiful to observe.  Their wizards often use sleep spells during combat because these won't affect other elves.

Being bullied by bigger, stronger creatures has taught goblins to exploit what few advantages they have: sheer numbers and malicious ingenuity.  The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society.  They favor ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise.
Goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them.  With proper supervision, though, they can implement reasonably complex plans, and in such circumstances their numbers can be a deadly advantage.

Pretty similar tactics and general sense of fair play, which is none at all.  The elves are admired for the same thing the goblins are cursed for, apparently for no better reason than they're elves.

[Spinning Welshman]

Elves in DF strike me as a lot like elves in many other games and fantasy stories, except without the benefit of an elf-friendly narrator.  At the best of times they seem to be hypocritical, arrogant jerkwads who can't back up even half of the cool stuff they're credited with.  They get away with plenty of evil, or at least unpleasant, stuff because they're the designated good guys, even though they don't act it.

Consider the Combat entries for Elf and Goblin in the D&D 3.5 monster manual.

Elves are cautious warriors and take time to analyze their opponents and the location of the fight if at all possible, maximizing their advantage by using ambushes, snipers, and camouflage.  They prefer to fire from cover and retreat before they are found, repeating this maneuver until all of their enemies are dead.  They prefer longbows, shortbows, rapiers, and longswords.  In melee, elves are graceful and deadly, using complex maneuvers that are beautiful to observe.  Their wizards often use sleep spells during combat because these won't affect other elves.

Being bullied by bigger, stronger creatures has taught goblins to exploit what few advantages they have: sheer numbers and malicious ingenuity.  The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society.  They favor ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise.
Goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them.  With proper supervision, though, they can implement reasonably complex plans, and in such circumstances their numbers can be a deadly advantage.

Pretty similar tactics and general sense of fair play, which is none at all.  The elves are admired for the same thing the goblins are cursed for, apparently for no better reason than they're elves.

Yeah, thats the main thing I find refreshing about the perspective in dwarf fortress, there is no force-fed opinion. I hate forced moral rules in stories.

[Nyan Thousand]

Well, a lot of that goes into what they look like. Goblins are ugly creatures. Elves, however, look more agreeable, if a bit androgynous. Also, elves are smarter than goblins. Fun fact, elves came from Germanic folklore, and they were basically dicks. Elves back then were more supernatural than anything (think Santa's elves), but this changed over the centuries (due to Romanticism and of course, Tolkien) until we got to where we are: gay fairies who eat what they kill and kill what they fuck.

Personally, DF elves are my favorite. Dwarves hate them because they're queer and they're cannibals, and they're dicks to other races. I don't like the "using tree magic to make wood crafts" explanation. I imagine elves just don't want anybody else cutting down trees. What makes Dorf Fort great is that you can just make this shit up and it'll be true nonetheless.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Elves in DF strike me as a lot like elves in many other games and fantasy stories, except without the benefit of an elf-friendly narrator.  At the best of times they seem to be hypocritical, arrogant jerkwads who can't back up even half of the cool stuff they're credited with.  They get away with plenty of evil, or at least unpleasant, stuff because they're the designated good guys, even though they don't act it.

Consider the Combat entries for Elf and Goblin in the D&D 3.5 monster manual.

Elves are cautious warriors and take time to analyze their opponents and the location of the fight if at all possible, maximizing their advantage by using ambushes, snipers, and camouflage.  They prefer to fire from cover and retreat before they are found, repeating this maneuver until all of their enemies are dead.  They prefer longbows, shortbows, rapiers, and longswords.  In melee, elves are graceful and deadly, using complex maneuvers that are beautiful to observe.  Their wizards often use sleep spells during combat because these won't affect other elves.

Being bullied by bigger, stronger creatures has taught goblins to exploit what few advantages they have: sheer numbers and malicious ingenuity.  The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society.  They favor ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise.
Goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them.  With proper supervision, though, they can implement reasonably complex plans, and in such circumstances their numbers can be a deadly advantage.

Pretty similar tactics and general sense of fair play, which is none at all.  The elves are admired for the same thing the goblins are cursed for, apparently for no better reason than they're elves.

Well, a lot of it also has to do why they are fighting. Goblins most often fight, pillage and murder because they like it or it's in their nature somehow, whereas elves are usually defending themselves or fighting for their ideals. As for DF elves, I don't think I've seen anything indicating they would be hypocritical or arrogant, although I guess their strong sense of morals and opinions on trees might be persieved that way by some? My image of them are more towards the ultimate nature lovers and defenders, going so far as to not eat or use anything that hasn't died a natural death. Them being at odds with the dwarves is fairly natural, as in many other fantasy worlds the dwarven greed and exploitation of forests and resources come at odds with the elves wish to preserve the lands in its natural pristine state.

[weenog]

Well, a lot of that goes into what they look like. Goblins are ugly creatures. Elves, however, look more agreeable, if a bit androgynous. Also, elves are smarter than goblins.

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder, and elves aren't always smarter.  They aren't in the sourcebook I took those quotes from, in fact, they aren't smarter than anything which doesn't have an Intelligence penalty (gobbos don't).

Not hypocritical nor arrogant?  Everything they have that isn't cloth is made of wood, yet they get butthurt over anyone else using much wood.  And before they quit saying anything at all, they'd presume to come in and make demands and restrictions on other races' behavior in their own homes, as if it was their gods-given right.

[Nyan Thousand]

Well, a lot of that goes into what they look like. Goblins are ugly creatures. Elves, however, look more agreeable, if a bit androgynous. Also, elves are smarter than goblins.

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder, and elves aren't always smarter.  They aren't in the sourcebook I took those quotes from, in fact, they aren't smarter than anything which doesn't have an Intelligence penalty (gobbos don't).

I'm going from how they're generally, depicted, mind you. I don't play D&D because my pastor said it's the devil's game.* Generally, elves are depicted as this wise and smart, civilized older-than-thou race attuned with nature and shit, right? While goblins are usually ugly creatures, prone to sinister deeds. While ugly is indeed in the eye of the beholder, there is this concept of universal beauty, and elves, in general, are more aesthetically pleasing than gobs. Hence, why elves are usually the good guys: because they literally look good.

_{*just kidding, my mom told me that}

[Thief^]

This was more interesting than the rest of the discussion:

I don't play D&D because my pastor said it's the devil's game.*
_{*just kidding, my mom told me that}

d&d was proclaimed to be evil (yes it actually was) for the same reason as rock and roll, and computer games were. It was new entertainment that teenagers liked, and therefore it's bad. The fact that it has had devils on the cover of the books certainly didn't help either, but in the vast majority of d&d games the players are the good guys. It's just the DM that gets to be the evil overlord of the 9 hells.

Hmm, maybe I should stop DM'ing before I damn my immortal soul!


... personally I think World of Warcraft is much more likely to be the devil's game than d&d. I haven't heard of anyone getting addicted to d&d to the point of completely ruining their life.