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[Stormy_2021]

So I have seen topics that are somewhat close to this, but nothing that actually suggests this.  I think that when a dwarf learns a skill, skills that are related to that skill should increase as well, by some percentage.  It seems silly that someone could be a legendary mason but be a terrible engraver.  It doesn't seem hard to do programming wise, and I'm kinda sick or getting a wave of 20 immigrants with terrible skill levels, and this would help alleviate the drawbacks of training them.  It would also help when you are just starting out and don't have many dwarves to specialize.       The idea itself is not at all new to the rpg world, in Stone soup, once you level up your short sword skill to a certain level, you get a bonus to your long blade skill, helping you when you change weapons.  Also, when you start to specialize in a certain type of magic and get really good at it, you get a penalization to the magic that is opposed to your specialty, which could possibly be worked in to this system somehow as a balancer.  I'm not sure that it needs much balancing, since the number of related skills could be kept small or large depending on the usefullness of said skill.  It might require a bit of a stretch in logic to make certain skills more worthwhile than they currently are, say linking milking and cheesemaking.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Maybe, instead, similar skills would grant bonuses to each other (for the sake of this post's math let's say 5% of the XP is added). I also think that similar skills should be chosen more by the kinds of products they create and the tools/techniques that would be used

For instance, a legendary glassmaker (25,000 XP, working in a furnace) with no glassmaking skill would be able to make glass as if he were a talented (4,500 XP) glassmaker. An accomplished woodcrafter with 10,000 XP, who also had a just-above-novice (say, 700 XP) level in carpentry, would mimic an adequate carpenter. Maybe the amount of synergy would vary by skill--for instance, half of the XP from masonry applies to stonecrafting and vise versa, and 15-20% of all farming skills' XP is, but only 1% of mining and woodcutting XP would be shared.

[Deimos56]

I believe you were planning to say something other than glassmaking twice, but I see your point.

[GreatWyrmGold]

*rereads own post*
The first was supposed to say Potter...oops.

[Stormy_2021]

Maybe, instead, similar skills would grant bonuses to each other (for the sake of this post's math let's say 5% of the XP is added). I also think that similar skills should be chosen more by the kinds of products they create and the tools/techniques that would be used

For instance, a legendary glassmaker (25,000 XP, working in a furnace) with no glassmaking skill would be able to make glass as if he were a talented (4,500 XP) glassmaker. An accomplished woodcrafter with 10,000 XP, who also had a just-above-novice (say, 700 XP) level in carpentry, would mimic an adequate carpenter. Maybe the amount of synergy would vary by skill--for instance, half of the XP from masonry applies to stonecrafting and vise versa, and 15-20% of all farming skills' XP is, but only 1% of mining and woodcutting XP would be shared.

Except for the glassmaking typo, this sounds exactly like what I was thinking of.  Different skills should have different bonuses.  Pottery and glassmaking have certain similarities, but have a lot of differences too, so maybe a 15 to 25 percent bonus would suffice. Masonry, engraving, and stonecrafting are all really similiar, so maybe something like 50 percent would be appropriate.  Perhaps as a balancing mechanic, certain skillfamilies would all increase together or or at least have a high percentage bleedoff rate, but be learned slower.  Like agriculture and ranching.  At any rate the crafting duties seem like they need to grouped together.  Someone who makes master quality wooden statues could probably make a pretty nice chair.

[Itsdavyjones]

I could somewhat see mining and woodcutting, but barely, they both require swinging a tool, but is different ways, so possible 5% or so.

[Mckee]

TBH, I think there shouldnt be any bleedoff between mining and woodcutting, both very different proffessions. Ideally, a good miner would be fairly strong (having stats develop as he labours, dont know the current state of this in the game right now) and that strength would also equate to being able chop wood faster. However the development of stats such a strength is different from some kind of skill bleed off, that represents techniques or skills common to both jobs.

Tangental post, sorry folks.

[Silverionmox]

Attractive as this sounds, I did a few back of the envelope calculations. Let's assume the final version of DF has 100 skills. Not an outlandish number. That means there are 100*100 skill combinations. If a modder/programmer would take merely 15 seconds per skill to consider whether they should influence each other and to edit the relevant number in the raw, that would take 15*100*100 seconds to pass over it. That's 150000 seconds = 2500 minutes = 41,66... hours. Welcome to the working week!

Clearly, we need a more robust system that allows sensible skill synergy and adapts itself to modding (new materials, new skills, new items, etc.) without requiring massive investments of time. I would prefer the composite skills idea, in one form or another. Basically, any job trains three composite skills: a material skill, a product skill, and a tool/process skill. The game would determine the available skills based on the available materials etc. in the raws. That way a dwarf that made stone furniture would be better in making wooden furniture than, say, a fisher.

[Nyan Thousand]

Attractive as this sounds, I did a few back of the envelope calculations. Let's assume the final version of DF has 100 skills. Not an outlandish number. That means there are 100*100 skill combinations. If a modder/programmer would take merely 15 seconds per skill to consider whether they should influence each other and to edit the relevant number in the raw, that would take 15*100*100 seconds to pass over it. That's 150000 seconds = 2500 minutes = 41,66... hours. Welcome to the working week!

Clearly, we need a more robust system that allows sensible skill synergy and adapts itself to modding (new materials, new skills, new items, etc.) without requiring massive investments of time. I would prefer the composite skills idea, in one form or another. Basically, any job trains three composite skills: a material skill, a product skill, and a tool/process skill. The game would determine the available skills based on the available materials etc. in the raws. That way a dwarf that made stone furniture would be better in making wooden furniture than, say, a fisher.

Well, right now we're grouping relevant skills, right? All farming skills are elements of one set, and so on. Say we have 100 skills, subdivided to 10 subgroups. Levelling up one skill also bleeds into the other elements in the skill set (so if you focus on Carpentry, some would also bleed into Crossbow-Making and Woodcutting)

This isn't ideal right now, of course. A Thresher, for example, shouldn't suddenly be able to farm. Or maybe he should, I don't know, but you get the idea, yes? Maybe the quickest solution would be more subdivisions based on relevance to each other, to prevent stupid shit like Wood Burning making you proficient in Cheese Making.

[Silverionmox]

That's one option, but you have chains of relevance that make that impossible or at least impossible to do satisfactory. Eg. woodcrafting to stonecrafting to engraving to mining to gemcutting, leatherworking to butchery to surgery to suturing to clothesmaking, etc.

[G-Flex]

Attractive as this sounds, I did a few back of the envelope calculations. Let's assume the final version of DF has 100 skills. Not an outlandish number. That means there are 100*100 skill combinations.

No, it doesn't. It means there are 4,950 skill combinations (of two skills), not 10,000.

15 seconds per combination times 4,950 combinations = about 20.6 hours. Still a lot.

[Silverionmox]

Attractive as this sounds, I did a few back of the envelope calculations. Let's assume the final version of DF has 100 skills. Not an outlandish number. That means there are 100*100 skill combinations.

No, it doesn't. It means there are 4,950 skill combinations (of two skills), not 10,000.

15 seconds per combination times 4,950 combinations = about 20.6 hours. Still a lot.

I assumed one-way synergy (eg. for having "prime mover" skills that influence, but are not influenced). Skills synergizing with themselves would still need to be scrapped even when assuming that, so that's certainly -100 in any case.

[alfie275]

I'm sure this would be a case where the community could help, much like they did with those density listings.

[maluraq]

TBH, I think there shouldnt be any bleedoff between mining and woodcutting, both very different proffessions. Ideally, a good miner would be fairly strong (having stats develop as he labours, dont know the current state of this in the game right now) and that strength would also equate to being able chop wood faster. However the development of stats such a strength is different from some kind of skill bleed off, that represents techniques or skills common to both jobs.

Tangental post, sorry folks.

qft ... this.

[Williham]

TBH, I think there shouldnt be any bleedoff between mining and woodcutting, both very different proffessions. Ideally, a good miner would be fairly strong (having stats develop as he labours, dont know the current state of this in the game right now) and that strength would also equate to being able chop wood faster. However the development of stats such a strength is different from some kind of skill bleed off, that represents techniques or skills common to both jobs.

Tangental post, sorry folks.

This.

Instead of a massively complicated network of synergies, stats could simply be made more important to the process, both improved faster, give a greater impact to quality, and, possibly, XP bonuses.

Skills already have stats and traits associated with them, so there's little to no extra work in that department.

It also means that whenever a new skill, it won't have to be reevaluated against all other skills, it only needs to be evaluated against its related stats, and all skills relevant to those stats automatically synergize.