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[nenjin]

Yeah we expect GTA-levels of quality and production because that's what we've been playing for 20 years. Unfortunately for CDPR they didn't have the experience to avoid "a first run" impression of all these game mechanics and features that other people have done smoother, better, smarter....or even finished.

[The_Explorer]

The problem was that CDPR had absolutely no experience with modern-like urban settings for their games, unlike what Rockstar has essentially done for years. So 'course this attempt was so horrendous; not to mention the CDPR also spent way more resources for marketing and hype, instead of not crunching their developers and focusing on actually making Cyberpunk at least viable at launch.

Though I wonder how Rockstar's attempt at a medieval open world setting, on the flip-side, would like at their first; then compare that to any of CDPR's Witcher games... though that tangent is theoretical obviously, since I doubt Rockstar is going to take a stab a medieval setting style game anytime soon.

I hear that comment and don't find it very accurate or truthful. Lots of companies make an amazing first game (or if its not their first game, its the first rpg they made or that type of rpg).

As for your rockstar comparison

Rockstar's first GTA was amazing for the time considering it was a dos game. 3d wise, I thought GTA 3 was good. Hasn't aged well at all though, but it is really old.

They already did a non-modern setting with red dead redemption (the first one was still great imo). So...a medieval game be more like red dead redemption 2...

As for studio firsts that were really good (various genres of games that come to mind)

Warcraft
Starcraft
Elder Scrolls Daggerfall
Morrowind (okay not the first, but I believe it was the first actual 3d elder scrolls, and bethesda was much smaller back then)
The countless NEW indie games that come out that some are really good, and some made with 1-3 devs...or at least very small studios...
Everquest (an MMO but was one of the first MMOs)
Ultima Online (not 3d, but counts as an amazing game for a first time studio)
Not their first game, but I believe it was their first 3d rpg (Horizon Zero Dawn)

I mean...lots of new games too that are a first, or a studio that made their first rpg after making other games that are really good...and indie games can be really good.

And not like cyberpunk was the studio's first game anyway, they made witcher games before hand. But lots of companies switch themes from medieval to sci-fi or vice versa or modern or whatever and they don't make the most basic broken AI ever made lol.

[The_Explorer]

For the AI though, I think they based it off witcher 3. That game was still good, but I think at least some people remember the AI wrong. The environmental npcs walked around aimlessly too and always bumped into geralt and were really stupid. The game was definitely less buggy (at least after dlcs, dont remember release so wont comment on that) than cyberpunk, but tbh the AI was kinda the same. Maybe the monsters were smarter, that has that going for it. I remember the first griffon fight was insane...but for most part, npcs themselves were the same as the cyberpunk ones. But its made worse in cyberpunk because their are cars and its futuristic so its more obvious.

[Lidku]

They already did a non-modern setting with red dead redemption (the first one was still great imo). So...a medieval game be more like red dead redemption 2...

I actually agree with most of the points of your post; but a little nitpick.. Read Dead Redemption 1 took place in 1911.. Red Dead Redemption 2 took place in 1899. Neither of the years these two games take place in are anywhere near Medieval. Both of them are at least in the Industrial and/or "Victorian" Age; hence them pretty much being modern.

Rockstar really has yet to ever explore much more earlier time period at all, other than modern.

[Damiac]

yeah dunno. tbh i never could understand all the rage. i was able to play trough the game iirc before a larger patch without much issues. yes. once my car gave me a good lol because it went airborne. there where glitches. i hated the mini game. cops spawning was retarded.
but it certainly was very playable for me.
good performance for me too, on a modern mid range system.

Probably just those darn entitled gamers again.  Getting mad about games being broken at launch, they should be thankful for getting anything at all! 

Actually many games are released in a working state, it's totally doable, and if I pay full price I expect a fully working product. So should you.

[Lidku]

Damn.. Thinking it over from previous discussion on AI in this thread, I just realized that even the AI from Oblivion is better than the AI in Cyberpunk; like, a leagues more ahead better. While the random conversations among the Oblivion NPCs were finicky and weird as hell, they actually had a good radiant personalities and handcrafted schedules (as an aside, particularly all of the NPCs, even the miscellaneous ones, were handcrafted) to go along with making settlement locations feel really alive.

I'd lay it down along the lines, that, "main" NPCs in Cyberpunk are obviously more focused-developed on and better designed due to the game being essentially an action-adventure game; ergo NPCs like Jackie Welles, Viktor, Judy Alverez, Rogue, etc... but of course, that's a given with a game like Cyberpunk. When looking at the non-essential, non-"main" NPCs in Cyberpunk 2077, we see the caliber of how the NPCs are designed in contrast to be basically lukewarm and lifeless so to speak. Of course not intentionally (giving CDPR the benefit of the doubt), but that's how they feel. This in turn makes Night City purportedly lifeless as well, negating the claims by CDPR of the setting (Night City) being the main attraction of the game.. It's not, since the city is dead and most players just like the game for the story along for the most part; making the game linear instead of feeling like a dynamic RPG.

[The_Explorer]

Damn.. Thinking it over from previous discussion on AI in this thread, I just realized that even the AI from Oblivion is better than the AI in Cyberpunk; like, a leagues more ahead better. While the random conversations among the Oblivion NPCs were finicky and weird as hell, they actually had a good radiant personalities and handcrafted schedules (as an aside, particularly all of the NPCs, even the miscellaneous ones, were handcrafted) to go along with making settlement locations feel really alive.

I'd lay it down along the lines, that, "main" NPCs in Cyberpunk are obviously more focused-developed on and better designed due to the game being essentially an action-adventure game; ergo NPCs like Jackie Welles, Viktor, Judy Alverez, Rogue, etc... but of course, that's a given with a game like Cyberpunk. When looking at the non-essential, non-"main" NPCs in Cyberpunk 2077, we see the caliber of how the NPCs are designed in contrast to be basically lukewarm and lifeless so to speak. Of course not intentionally (giving CDPR the benefit of the doubt), but that's how they feel. This in turn makes Night City purportedly lifeless as well, negating the claims by CDPR of the setting (Night City) being the main attraction of the game.. It's not, since the city is dead and most players just like the game for the story along for the most part; making the game linear instead of feeling like a dynamic RPG.

oblivion ai was actually almost on par with skyrim somehow. I'd argue it was better than skyrim, the npcs felt more real and had vastly better routines...just conversations sucked

[IronyOwl]

Oblivion was always trying to be super immersive and lively and generative, and then failed miserably. Case in point: NPCs eat food, and if they can't find any food they will steal it. As a result, most NPCs contain an infinite supply of food so they don't starve... or rather, rob someone and get murdered by the guards for it.

It's janky as hell and almost totally pointless, but damn if it wasn't trying. Cyberpunk, by contrast, appears to have made the very conscious decision to cut and run in a lot of areas, AI and general liveliness among them.

[hedgerow]

The problem was that CDPR had absolutely no experience with modern-like urban settings for their games, unlike what Rockstar has essentially done for years. So 'course this attempt was so horrendous; not to mention the CDPR also spent way more resources for marketing and hype, instead of not crunching their developers and focusing on actually making Cyberpunk at least viable at launch.

Though I wonder how Rockstar's attempt at a medieval open world setting, on the flip-side, would like at their first; then compare that to any of CDPR's Witcher games... though that tangent is theoretical obviously, since I doubt Rockstar is going to take a stab a medieval setting style game anytime soon.

CDPR did a great job with Cyberpunk 2077; the environments were intelligently designed the entire way through.  There are so many areas where gunplay and combat becomes an actual game rather than a cruncher.  There was only one flaw I noticed, and it was the lack of anything beyond South American-esque cover-based combat.  You're going to get far at the docks, but once you get in the inner city, it's either a market place or a highway, basically.

Never went out to the windmills.

Only problem with that approach is you have to play it on the easiest setting to make it a shooter, because enemies tank damage to an insane level that breaks immersion quite quickly.

[Rince Wind]

I actually prefer CP to GTA5 (and Skyrim for that matter, I have tried to play it a few times with and without mods and never made it very far, I guess I burned out on the Bethesda formula after Fallout 3).
2 of the characters in GTA5 I hated the other was bland and boring. I really enjoyed the 1st heist and hoped for more stuff like that, but most of the missions were being pressured into doing stupid stuff for the pseudo-FBI.
Nonetheless the city felt impressive, if very gamey. (here is your slum, it has about 5 houses in it)

I had no major bugs in CP, so my experience differed from that of those who had. The game has its problems, lots of them in fact. Balancing is completly off, the loot and inventory system is just bad, the AI ... well ...
But it managed to make me care about the Story-NPCs, even Silverhand went from annoying prick to a guy I could live with in my head. The city itself looks so much more lived in and actually like a place where people could live. Never mind the stupid NPCs inhabiting it.
I just really enjoyed my time in Night City, unlike ... Los Santos? Or whatever the name of the City in GTA5 was, where the city despite everything felt more like a backdrop to place missions on a map to me.

Not that GTA is without its problems. I tried online twice. First time no controls worked. At all. It felt as if it was waiting for controller inputs when all I have is mouse&keyboard. Second time it was just graphical glitches and funny lights. 

[Damiac]

Oblivion was always trying to be super immersive and lively and generative, and then failed miserably. Case in point: NPCs eat food, and if they can't find any food they will steal it. As a result, most NPCs contain an infinite supply of food so they don't starve... or rather, rob someone and get murdered by the guards for it.

It's janky as hell and almost totally pointless, but damn if it wasn't trying. Cyberpunk, by contrast, appears to have made the very conscious decision to cut and run in a lot of areas, AI and general liveliness among them.

Yeah they obviously put a lot of thought and work into that system and just weren't willing to cut it out even when it didn't work.  So they hacked and hacked until it stopped breaking the game. It results in some unexpected behavior, but obviously didn't work out as they hoped.

But still, the NPCs didn't just walk into walls or anything that bad.

[BigD145]

The problem was that CDPR had absolutely no experience with modern-like urban settings for their games, unlike what Rockstar has essentially done for years. So 'course this attempt was so horrendous; not to mention the CDPR also spent way more resources for marketing and hype, instead of not crunching their developers and focusing on actually making Cyberpunk at least viable at launch.

Though I wonder how Rockstar's attempt at a medieval open world setting, on the flip-side, would like at their first; then compare that to any of CDPR's Witcher games... though that tangent is theoretical obviously, since I doubt Rockstar is going to take a stab a medieval setting style game anytime soon.

CDPR did a great job with Cyberpunk 2077; the environments were intelligently designed the entire way through.  There are so many areas where gunplay and combat becomes an actual game rather than a cruncher.  There was only one flaw I noticed, and it was the lack of anything beyond South American-esque cover-based combat.  You're going to get far at the docks, but once you get in the inner city, it's either a market place or a highway, basically.

Never went out to the windmills.

Only problem with that approach is you have to play it on the easiest setting to make it a shooter, because enemies tank damage to an insane level that breaks immersion quite quickly.

Oh? I used a pistol the whole way through and nothing was tanky. Killed the big boss at the end with one reload and I think that's because I missed once. It was only 6 or 7 shots and he dead. I just had pistol drops throughout the game. I never crafted or upgraded any gun. I don't know how that game system works because I didn't use it. Everything was pretty easy to take down. I had to intentionally use hacking to make things remotely more interesting. I had a bunch of skill points unspent at the end. At least a dozen.

[dragdeler]

I think you mean revolver?


I got a savegame rdy with lvl50 and the most meta weapons upgraded as good as possible... I'll record a highest rifficulty playthrough one day with that... Hope to achieve some degree of realism that is lacking with leveled loot. Might even make a rule about not using medikits.

[The_Explorer]

I actually prefer CP to GTA5 (and Skyrim for that matter, I have tried to play it a few times with and without mods and never made it very far, I guess I burned out on the Bethesda formula after Fallout 3).
2 of the characters in GTA5 I hated the other was bland and boring. I really enjoyed the 1st heist and hoped for more stuff like that, but most of the missions were being pressured into doing stupid stuff for the pseudo-FBI.
Nonetheless the city felt impressive, if very gamey. (here is your slum, it has about 5 houses in it)

I had no major bugs in CP, so my experience differed from that of those who had. The game has its problems, lots of them in fact. Balancing is completly off, the loot and inventory system is just bad, the AI ... well ...
But it managed to make me care about the Story-NPCs, even Silverhand went from annoying prick to a guy I could live with in my head. The city itself looks so much more lived in and actually like a place where people could live. Never mind the stupid NPCs inhabiting it.
I just really enjoyed my time in Night City, unlike ... Los Santos? Or whatever the name of the City in GTA5 was, where the city despite everything felt more like a backdrop to place missions on a map to me.

Not that GTA is without its problems. I tried online twice. First time no controls worked. At all. It felt as if it was waiting for controller inputs when all I have is mouse&keyboard. Second time it was just graphical glitches and funny lights.

that is probably why got so into the story was the story characters. They nailed that one A+

Skyrim? Freakin hated every npc ever encountered and dear lord the children omg the children wtf. I think bethesda really hates children lol. Oblivion npcs were way more likeable

GTA 5 characters...well...seemed um...a bit racist in parts (not the characters specifically, not even the devs/company probably, but the way the game is made and how the characters are presented) but I know saying that anywhere and all the gta fans go crazy cause others have brought that up too and oh boy is the hate and anger loud lol

RDR2 characters I actually like, they did really good with the characters there at least to me they did. Now that was a triple A story.

Cyberpunk2077 nails the characters as well like said...like...that was really why I got so into the story tbh. If the game was a linear RPG maybe more like witcher 1/2 but with same graphics cyberpunk currently has (which would then result in it running on consoles better), this would be 10/10 game of the year just because of the characters alone

[dragdeler]

Skyrim npc were generic AF. And I'll replay CP2077, before I'll replay  RDR2... The writing of rdr2 wasn't bad just terribly clichee... But somehow the new edgy is having turbovanilla tastes.

GTA 5 was very very good for it's time but I feel like many here are omitting how easy you go out of bounds in modern rockstar missions, absolute immersion killer for me. CDPR should have stuck to their guns made and dedicated all efforts into making it the best fallout clone there ever was, instead of inflating the feature list by all the ubisoft open world tropes... It might have had less broad mainstream appeal but as gesamtkunstwerk it could be miles more coherent.