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[knutor]

@GreatWyrmGold, for the reason a dwarf has 5 senses. 

And if something new is going to cause bad thoughts.. seeing barenakedness.  Then just the same patch, something new should cause good thoughts, an offsetting balance and conservation of thought should be maintained at all time, in every patch.  I proposed smelling barenakedness.  Maybe not to the entire extent of producing miasma, but smelling it nonetheless.  It sure would give the creators of the mod soundsense a whole lot of additional work, producing fart sounds.  And that's a good thing, IMO.

If atheletes didn't love the smell of locker rooms why would they ever bother to show up at the next practice. 
If cooks didn't appreciate loud flatulence and other complimentary noises, from the dinning areas, why would they bother plucking another bird?

@Mrhappyface, got a light?  I gotta process this doobie.  HEH!  I promise you, I am not writing while doing that.  I'm guessing Process Plant to Pot interferes with any future creation of a mortar and pestle, for the alchemist's to use.  I'm good with it if this is the case.  Not being in there in that farming workshop's menu of farmer options, makes my eyebrow stand funny.  Know what I mean? 

I'm just gonna tell myself, that this Rock Pot used for storing food, could be of particular importance in future jobs, related to Alchemists and therefore mustn't be soiled by plantlife.  But I dunno, I feel a little like my dwarfs are missing a fundamental technology here.  ie.  Put plant in marble pot. 

[GreatWyrmGold]

So...if anything causes unhappy thoughts, anything else that might be unpleasant should cause unhappy thought? You still haven't explained why farts should smell like rotting corpses. Even accepting the rest of your drivel as true, you need to explain that.

And sorry if I'm being rude, it's a bit irritating when I'm in a debate with someone who seems to put nakedness on par with smelling someone--or oneself--passing gas.

[knutor]

Wyrm,  I scrolled up, and didn't see where I brought up corpses.  Was that me or you? 

If I have to defend that.  Well then I'd say, because a corpse stockpile with a rotten corpse can be painted restricted to thwart travel by the majority of the dwarfs AWAY from it and theirby prevent bad thoughts.  But on the flipside someones bare ass cannot be painted restricted, well it can be painted, but it cannot be painted restricted.  Bareassedness travels and bumps into lots of other Bareassedness, creating a compounding bad thought.  Unlike a corpse in a pile, that only the Hunters and Butchers visit.  Does that make any sense?  Seems to me, like it does.  We have farts and will travel!

[Robosaur]

Urist McBisexual has been happy lately. He saw one damn fine dwarf naked recently.

[knutor]

That bisexual idea, makes me think of a solution, which I'm sure has already been thunk.  But here it is, both should dorfs in the interaction should get thoughts.  The one snickering at the nekkid one, good thought, and the one pee-shamed at being nekkid, bad thought.  That's the kind of balance I seek.  But then, would it even be worth the effort?  Since they offset one another.. Hmpf.  Glad I'm not Toady, these questions are hard to answer.  Knutor

[Starver]

More or less what I already said...

Negative clothing thoughts are along the lines of the nobilic 'room quality' thoughts.  If you're naked and you see others who aren't, then it's a bad thought.  If you're wearing just a loincloth and you spot someone (not sufficiently higher-ranked than you, in your assessment) wearing a full ensemble, then you also get a bad thought.

Quite possibly, you also get good thoughts if you're the one clothed and observe one who isn't (or isn't quite so). [...]

I don't see anything wrong with them offsetting each other.  "Punished someone recently", or "had someone punished recently" is a good thought (albeit, in the latter, to offset the bad thought of whatever caused you to want them punished) is a good thought to one dorf where the receiving of the punishment is a bad thought to the other.

Don't forget that it's rarely the whole fort that simultaneously tantrums.  Some, indeed most, of your dorfs are probably quite happy, but one of them (who hasn't had a drink for a while, seen a hated fluffy wambler, had to sleep outside in the rain, and whose new-born child was used by his warrior-'maiden' spouse as a shield in a recent battle) breaks down and himself starts a chain of trouble which draws the spirits of the rest downwards.  The good thoughts received as counteraction to another dorf's bad thoughts might delay the clothed observer's decline a bit. but could easily be drawn into the downward-spiral eventually...

[GreatWyrmGold]

Wyrm,  I scrolled up, and didn't see where I brought up corpses.  Was that me or you? 

-snip-

*rolls eyes, and points at title*
"Miasmic cheese farts" implies that the gas produced when dwarves eat cheese would be represented with miasma, which is the gas which rotting corpses and the like give off. Presumably, it is what smells bad.

More or less what I already said...

Negative clothing thoughts are along the lines of the nobilic 'room quality' thoughts.  If you're naked and you see others who aren't, then it's a bad thought.  If you're wearing just a loincloth and you spot someone (not sufficiently higher-ranked than you, in your assessment) wearing a full ensemble, then you also get a bad thought.

Quite possibly, you also get good thoughts if you're the one clothed and observe one who isn't (or isn't quite so). [...]

I don't see anything wrong with them offsetting each other.  "Punished someone recently", or "had someone punished recently" is a good thought (albeit, in the latter, to offset the bad thought of whatever caused you to want them punished) is a good thought to one dorf where the receiving of the punishment is a bad thought to the other.

Don't forget that it's rarely the whole fort that simultaneously tantrums.  Some, indeed most, of your dorfs are probably quite happy, but one of them (who hasn't had a drink for a while, seen a hated fluffy wambler, had to sleep outside in the rain, and whose new-born child was used by his warrior-'maiden' spouse as a shield in a recent battle) breaks down and himself starts a chain of trouble which draws the spirits of the rest downwards.  The good thoughts received as counteraction to another dorf's bad thoughts might delay the clothed observer's decline a bit. but could easily be drawn into the downward-spiral eventually...

Perhaps, but the issue is that there is rarely a problem causing a big bad thought that affects only one dwarf. A baby dies? The mother gets a bad thought, the father gets a bad thought, the baby's siblings get bad thoughts, and that's assuming the baby has no friends and was the only casualty. A type of vermin a dwarf hates* is seen in a food stockpile? That type is probably also disliked by other nearby dwarves. Urist hasn't had a drink in a while? There's probably an alcohol shortage. And, perhaps aside from the potentially deadly consequences of sadness, this isn't too unrealistic. How many Americans can honestly claim to not be saddened by the course of our nation over these past few decades? I feel safe in guessing that they're in the minority.

*I believe that fluffy wamblers lack [VERMIN_HATEABLE], and will therefore not be hated by dwarves.

An important question, though: Why would dwarves be happy at the sight of other dwarves' nakedness? I can see some dwarves being big enough jerks that they don't care where they are as long as someone's lower, and those would certainly get good thoughts from seeing naked dwarves, but other dwarves would be sad that there is such poverty in the fort that people can't afford or obtain clothes, and most would be kinda disquieted by the nudity. I'd imagine that after a few years of nudity in a mild climate, dwarves would get used to it, but I can't imagine migrants or traders wanting to come to a completely nudist fortress.

[Starver]

Perhaps, but the issue is that there is rarely a problem causing a big bad thought that affects only one dwarf. A baby dies? The mother gets a bad thought, the father gets a bad thought, the baby's siblings get bad thoughts, and that's assuming the baby has no friends and was the only casualty.

I didn't say that the mom didn't get upset, only it was the Dad who'd not been living the life of Riley and was the first to crack.  As soon as he gets hammered (or current equivalent), that'd probably tip mommy (battle-hardened mommy, now with additional impromptu-shield skills!) to succumb if she's not had a totally ecstatic dining experience recently, to help buffer the emotional hit of the twin family tragedies.

Anyway, 'twas merely a vague example, as I'm sure you realise.    (Albeit generally crafted from a few purposefully 'slightly' discomforts and then a 'real humdinger' that took the guy over the edge, but I'll admit I didn't put much research into it, hence the Fluffy Wambler oversight; although also it's trivial to mess up your micromanaging and make just one dwarf be deprived of alcohol.  BTDTGTTS.)

An important question, though: Why would dwarves be happy at the sight of other dwarves' nakedness?

Well, it was rather in my original (offered-up alternative, not a be-all-and-end-all 'you must do this') suggestion, that it's an "I'm better(/more) clothed than someone else, that's a gooood feeling!" sort of response.

You're right in that normally dwarves aren't so petty as to enjoy schadenfreude[1], but I was really just tossing an idea out.  (Also, hoping to get Knutor to phase back into the real world for a follow-up post, but that didn't happen.  I've been tempted several times to suggest that he should either take less of something he shouldn't be taking, or more of something that he ought to be...)


[1] Must add that to my spill-chucker.  Wants me to change it to that notorious tale-teller, "Scheherazade".

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ah, I see...

About the first part of your post: Saying "One dwarf tips over the edge" is alright, but unlikely. See, most good thoughts are unlikely to miss a few dwarves. Of course, there are more exceptions here...but unless you're segregating your fort, this won't likely mean much except that some dwarves start tantruming earlier.

[Starver]

Might be differences in playing style, but I've occasionally sorted the Dwarf Therapist list by happiness and found one dwarf who, while not rock-bottom, is clearly exceptionally not-as-happy-as-everyone-else for some reason or other.  (I haven't generally used DT for that, but the info is there, and so I have looked at it.)

Could easily also be a psych-condition ("gets depressed easily"?) unique among the subset of 'dorfs with unfulfilled needs'.  Or, if you prefer, a particular conglomeration of unfulfilled needs that is unique among the subset of dorfs that are members of The Easily-Depressed Posse.


Right, what was this thread about, again?  I don't think we ever found out for sure, did we?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Come to think of it, my forts also seem to have one or two people who are unhappy while everyone else isn't. I guess it has more to do with a combination of personality, disliking common vermin, and not having been assigned a room yet. Heh, theory loses to empirical evidence.

As to the thread's original topic? Um...something with cheese causing dwarves to pasa gas. Or maybe nakedness, I don't remember which.

[knutor]

Couldn't fashion thoughts be called Starver's nobilic 'room quality' thoughts? 

I'm not in anyway wishing to remove Toady's bad thought.  Just offseting it, in an effort to keep the conservation of randomized thoughts, in some checks and balances.  I'm for your idea Starver.  Aslong as barenakedness isn't removed.  It doesn't suffer the penalty of other thought generators, in that it isn't anchored in place.  This unhinged aspect of the thought, I think is an overlooked aspect of it.  Starver's idea could help soften its weighted disadvantages. 

Not all barenaked dorfs have their hauling skills ALL enabled.  But that one, that does?  Or the streaking nurse, running water to /R crafters throughtout the fortress, geezus Armok.  All these bad thoughts in all these places, as opposed to one, anchored, mastercrafted statue, seems unbalanced.

@Great, ahh, see well, my minds eye, image of miasma, is somewhat different than yours, GreatWyrmGold.  In my head, its a stinking cloud, generated by anything.  Anything.  Much like the forgotten beast clouds.  A cloud of choking awfulness.

Sincerely, Knutor

[Mrhappyface]

Stop with the stream of consciousness, I can't keep up with my unenlightened mind.

[GreatWyrmGold]

knutor: Your idea of having positive thoughts to help outweigh the negative was good. If only you hadn't tainted it with your diversion about dwarven gas.

And, as miasma is currently only generated by rot, it currently appears to be modeled to smell like rot. To put it in layman's terms: It comes from rotting bodies, and since it's associated with smell, it's probably the smell things make when they rot.

[knutor]

This new miasmic cheese fart skill could be linked to the Urge and Comedy attributes and come in two variations, sound and smell. 

Smell variety, purely smell related. 
Causes coughing fits and faints when used in combat. 
Causes happy thought when used after a cheese dinner. 
+1 Comedy Farter. 
+1 Urge and Happy Thought Witnesses.
Inod pulls her own finger, an unworldly odor covers field of battle.
Small orange miasma cloud in combat.


Sound variety, purely sound related.
Causes deftness to ensue.
Causes a happy thought when used after a cheese dinner.
Inod bends over.  An atomic bond seperating event occurs.
Small blue miasma cloud in combat.