Flying Dice: Honestly, as of right now, I'm not really seeing Chaos Armor as terribly scummy nor a bandwagon starter. Looking back at early D1, I see newbie behavior, and I see that he possibly had a good point on BMC's claim of "being suspicious of Deathsword the whole game" ... because the game had been going for all of four hours at that point. Do you think that's valid in context?
Looking back on it, I do, to a certain degree. I've been going over that stretch of time more carefully, and I believe that it could have been either newbish behavior or scummish behavior, hence why I unvoted. I'm going to need to reevaluate my thoughts on this carefully, but I'm suspicious enough that I don't want to simply drop it.
Besides, if you've that much fervor for CA, then why not vote him?
You seem to mistake pressure with belief. I
did vote him for quite a while, but (as per the above) when I realized that I could be mistaken, I unvoted. I think that I haven't been allowing enough for newbish behavior; I recall having the same sort of issue last BM as well. I think that I need to take a step back and reexamine D1 and what we have thusfar of D2. I'm not prepared to discount my suspicions entirely, though.
And to be fair, you bloody well were looking like you were buddying me by asking a question that would be weak even in early RVS. If you're going to push for a reaction, do it in a way that will draw more than indifferent snarking.
How does one start a bandwagon, Flying Dice? I can certainly see how one joins one. My reasons for voting you Flying Dice are as follows: You voted me for nonsensical reasons then took it off to avoid looking like you were attacking me. You jumped on a bandwagon D1 looking for an easy lynch. And so far your voting style looks like you're just following the crowd and trying to get someone lynched.
To further clarify:
You made a 2-line statement of suspicion of BMC when you voted for him, and added 3-4 more lines of content/investigation of him between your vote and the mislynch. Can you see how that made me suspicious? When I see someone vote for someone else and not bother putting much pressure on them or effort into investigation, my first instinct is to assume that they're scum and don't really care who they vote for. Looking back, you did mention that you were having internet problems (though you still managed to make several votes); this drew my suspicion onto you during D2 because it looked to me like you were the one who got the cart rolling on that interiallynch, and because you didn't care enough about the vote to follow it up thoroughly.
I think that I was viewing your actions in a very different way than you are (which somewhat ironically bears parallels to the current situation), and that I did not sufficiently account for lack of experience/lack of time.
I developed my suspicions of BMC after what I saw as a panic/overly defensive reaction on his part. See posts #77, 83, and 104 for the core of my argument for his scumminess. Obviously I was mistaken. I had 16 lines or so of content-investigation of BMC (more than twice what you posted). I don't really see how that makes my suspicion of him less valid than yours, given that I was more involved with pressuring him and that my vote was based on a larger volume of evidence.
Incidentally, I've always been rather hesitant to rely on vote order as a basis for suspicions, largely because I recognize that some people prefer to toss votes around like candy while others will wait to vote until they have a stray thread to unravel, so to speak. Simply saying "You weren't one of the first two people to vote someone, therefore you are scum" seems like rather poor reasoning to me.
As for my voting style...? I'm not sure I understand. It is really rather simple to understand how I vote, and I'd think you'd be capable of doing so. Nevertheless, I'll spell it out in short words:
When Dice has reason to think a person is scummy, Dice votes for that person. When Dice realizes he has misinterpreted or improperly evaluated the evidence, Dice unvotes to avoid being party to a mislynch.
With BMC, his response to a vote and FoS (compounded with earlier behavior) looked scummy to me, so I voted him and started applying pressure. After the mislynch, I reexamined the interactions that started the wagon, and your vote appeared to be the moment it went over the precipice, so I examined the rest of your investigation of BMC, only to find that there really
wasn't much of one.
In any case, I am uncertain at this point. Your post could be newbtown or scummish and I'm not sure which, but your actions during D1 were quite suspicious, most notably
the lack of scumhunting, especially on the person you bloody well voted for! Even if you were only able to make a few posts, you still should have had actual content in those posts. I honestly don't think that it is possible to gather enough evidence in D1 to be so certain of someone's scumminess that no further interaction is required.
I'm too damn trusting, and perhaps I'm too damn honest, openly admitting to being somewhat hesitant. Nevertheless, you
were sidelining and being lax despite clearly having enough time to make decent-length posts. I had unvoted you (though Jim didn't notice), but damn it, the more I think about it the more your D1 play reeks of lazy scum. I might be wrong, but I don't think I am.
To further clarify it for you: I stated that I believed you were responsible for starting the bandwagon on BMC because you voted him and didn't properly continue the investigation; incidentally, my vote for him was based primarily on evidence that didn't exist until
after your vote. If you cut the brakes on a car and someone else steps on the accelerator, you're still responsible for the wreck.
In any case, if being honest and open about my thoughts and intentions is going to draw fire, I don't particularly care. I'd rather provide as much reasoning as I can, both as a learning tool and to help town, even if I take flak from scum looking for a mislynch. I screwed up and didn't look around as much as I should have during D1, and if I'm the only one willing to admit that, so be it.
Chaos ArmorOn the note of lack of pressure, I'm rather concerned that the old "ICs
can't be scum" mindset is coming up again. I don't think I've seen anyone seriously investigate either Shake or Irony yet. It may just be the result of last BM, but that leaves a bad taste in my mouth;
nobody should get a pass.
Shakerag and IronyOwl:
You've had your votes on Deathsword practically since the start of D2 and haven't been talking to him very much in the past few days. How certain of your suspicions are you; and are your suspicions of him primarily based on BMC flipping town after he and Deathsword went after each other? Incidentally, why have you two been (apart from a time around June 15th) pursuing the same person to such a degree?
Deathsword:
You've been a target practically since the start of D1. Do you feel that there is a specific aspect of your play that is drawing fire? You admitted that your WIFOM in #57 was one of the things that made you look scummy; why did you decide to post something like that, especially in RVS?
Author
Topic: Beginner's Mafia XXXIV: Nine-Life Ninja: GAME OVER, Scum Victory! (Read 65886 times)