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[Jim Groovester]

[4] blackmagechill: Chaos Armor, borno, Deathsword, Flying Dice
[1] Deathsword: IronyOwl
[2] Fiskav: blackmagechill, Theodolus

Five votes for an extension.

Day has been extended to Wednesday 9:00 PM MST.

[borno]

Borno
What happened to the post you were planning on putting up? You've been pretty inactive this entire game and then the one time you promise to put up some content you fail to deliver. Gotta say that you're quickly moving up in my suspicions list. Care to try to explain away your scummy behavior this time?

Oops, sorry. I forgot about it overnight, and I didn't see any updates on the thread. Here is a group of questions:
BMC:
Could you please explain all your reasons for voting Fiskav right now?
Deathsword:
What do you say to Fiskav putting suspicions on you a few posts back? How about BMC?
Fiskav:
Why would having an offensive attitude mean that someone's not town? Explain.
Theodolus:
Suspicions list? Could you tell me who exactly is on it?
IronyOwl:
Where are you?
Shakerag:
When do you plan on getting back from vacation?
Chaos Armor:
Explain your case on BMC.
Flying Dice:
Who's second on your list of suspicions?

[Teneb]

Borno: I already asked Fiskav why he is suspicious of me, and why he is going around accusing people without saying why. He has yet to answer. Go back a few pages and you'll see my post.

[Jim Groovester]

Consider this a prod on everyone.

[Shakerag]

Hello everyone, I survived my vacation and the 5-hour drive home.  Just letting you know I'm not dead in a flaming wreck along the highway somewhere.  Will be catch-up posting tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Flying Dice]

Apologies, everyone. I've been rather busy with work the past couple days.
____

Flying Dice:
Who's second on your list of suspicions?

Second... I don't have anyone who is a clear-cut second. It will probably depend on what I see over the last hours of the day. BMC has by far been the scummiest in my eyes, what with the OMGUS votes and BS, and I haven't seen anything noticably objectionable from anyone else. Deathsword is slightly ahead of the rest, because he wasn't arguing clearly earlier.

So then.

Deathsword: Could you try to explain what it was that first made you suspicious of BMC when you originally FoSed him?

In my defence, considering the points IronyOwl brought up:

I didn't really know wheter or not asking a lot of questions in my first post would be a good thing or not, so I decided to stick with just one question.

When blackmagechill decided to declare himself supicious of my post, I decided to see what I could get out of him by making some wild (by my standards, at least) assumptions.

Going to FoS blackmagechill due to what I said above.

Clarify, please? BMC's response(s) were scummy, but your initial reasoning seems unclear to me, apart from "poke and see what falls out".

Okay, Deathsword was slightly ahead of the pack for second.

Chaos Armor:

blackmagechill:

Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.

You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?

EBWOP:

I forgot to put blackmagechill's name in red.

blackmagechill:

Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.

@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.

So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.

So, let's look at what I'm basing my suspicions on here.
1. I said that he only asked one question in RVS, which was weird and showed he had few suspicions.
2. He retaliated that he was afraid of fallacies or something, and said that only mentioning three players would be suspicious, which was hypocritical and meant he was/ should've been by that l ogic suspicious of Flying Dice, Theoldus, and me.
3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?
4. In that same post he said that if he was scum he would try to look town instead of looking like scum, which is circular logic (I can't be scum because scum are supposed to look like town, so I don't look like town, and am therefore scum).
5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.
6.Chaos Armor jumps on me for voting Deathsword, who's only question was on him. After all that flailing, he tried to cover for Deathsword and voted me. That was the nail in the coffin.

It's called a pressure vote.

I forgot to highlight your name in red in my post so I made another post after it to add it. I don't see how I was flailing around. I still want my question answered.

I wasn't all that suspicious of you in the first place. But I'm beginning to have doubts. Falsely accusing someone of flailing when they had only made one post just speaks that you either did not read carefully over what was said or are just trying to get someone lynched.

blackmagechill:

Because I've been suspicious of him the whole time, and I'm starting to really be suspicious, mostly because he was saying it's a claim that he's scum, which it isn't by any stretch, and I get irritated as fuck when people bring fallacies into anything, because it usually becomes their only defense after a while. Theoldus did make an RVS post, btw. It was right after mine.

You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?

blackmagechill:

You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?

I've been suspicious since he freaked out over the one question thing. One question is a read because it shows you have laxed suspicions. Using hypocritical statements to defend your actions is a bigger one. And, having the one person you questioned throw a pressure vote on someone pressuring you is a pretty huge read.

You still didn't answer my question of why you didn't pressure vote him in the first place.

That constitutes your entire "investigation" into BMC. You pose ONE moderately valid question to him, then use that as an excuse to sit back and sideline ever since, occasionally firing off one-line token questions and responses, hiding yourself behind the claim that you're waiting for his real response, and waving off the one he did give by asking for another response. If you're so damn suspicious of him, why the hell aren't you pushing him!? Ironic, really, considering that one of your one-line responses was stating that the best way to catch scum is to scumhunt.

So. Chaos Armor. I guess I gave you a proper answer after all, borno. Incidentally, why are you so curious about my suspicions, borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?

Anyhow. BMC is still scummy as all hell to me, and that blackmail he's been throwing around hasn't helped his case. BMC: I'm sure you've at least skimmed the tips (or old games), so why the hell are you trying a last-ditch blackmail attempt? It won't help town stop a mislynch, and it certainly won't help scum like you. You have given me zero reason, in your behavior or response, to think that you're town.

[borno]

Borno: I already asked Fiskav why he is suspicious of me, and why he is going around accusing people without saying why. He has yet to answer. Go back a few pages and you'll see my post.

No, I don't want Fiskav's opinion. I want yours.

[borno]

EBWOP:
Flying Dice:

borno? Looking to rifle through peoples' pockets for loose paths of investigation so you can appear to be doing something productive instead of sidelining like Chaos Armor?

No. I need to get a read on people's thoughts and opinions, which will probably come useful in later situations.

[Teneb]

Flying Dice: Quoting a previous post of mine, so I don't have to re-type all that.

IronyOwl: Very well, I'll tell what I did read from that and why I kept it a secret.

I'll start with the why: I wasn't completely sure and I certainly wasn't confident enough about what I though to share with others, especially since it carried the risk of making me look stupid and even making my situation worse. So yes, it was partially out of fear and I admit that.


Now, what I did get from that: He seemed to misunderstand (intentionally or not) most of my statements. If it was because they were confusing for any reason, I apologize. However, he decided to FoS and later vote me because I "felt wierd". Now, this is (or was) RVS, thus voting to pressure is normal. However, when questioned himself he was clearly defensive, even angry, and kept re-stating the same things, mostly how I "felt wierd". This has led me to belive there is something off here and thus I hereby clearly and fully accuse him of being scum due to behaviour I belive to be that of scum.

My question to fiskav still stands, I'd like to know why.

Borno: You asked what I thought of fiskav accusing me of being suspicious, to which I replied that I already had questioned him about this (but he has yet to provide an answer), thus another quote:

Fiskav: Back one or two pages I asked you why you considered me suspicious. You seem to have avoided that question. In fact you also accused other people without stating any evidence either. Why is that? Are you hiding something?

I hope this will also cause fiskav to answer it.

[Shakerag]

[IronyOwl may have touched on some of these points already, but I'm too lazy to cross-reference, so I'm just taking notes as I go.]

Speaking of...
Shakerag
As a cop if the town starts fingering a player you know to be a townie how would you go about trying to swing their votes in a different direction?

[And an IC question: how long do you normally wait for a player to respond to your questions before firing another barrage at them?]

1) Depends a lot on the state of the game (i.e. which day is it, power-role heavy, etc.).  As a rule of thumb, I would say that I generally claim cop info after two inspections, regardless of results.  Claiming results usually gets people to adjust thier votes.  If I wasn't ready to claim for some reason, I'd throw out a general comment or two about not feeling that person is scum (with reasons!) and focus on someone I felt was more scummy. 

2) [Generally speaking, unless the player has indicated something about thier posting schedule, if they haven't responded within 24 hours, fire volley #2 (usually with a vote at that point).  Or if you happen to think of something new and pertinent to tack on to your original question(s).]


[General observation:  Please use the preview button, everyone.  Messing up formatting makes the IC's eyes bleed.]


Fiskav@102:  [Both town and scum should appear to be aiming for a "town victory", so your reason is a poor one here.]


BMC@107:  [I get the feeling I'll be saying this a lot, but any statement to the effect of "if I get lynched ..." is generally seen as more scummy than not.  Plus, even if you are town and get mislynched, your "hunches and suspicions" may not be necessarily correct.]


Theodolus@108:  [How are your questions to BMC relevant to this game?  Do those questions help you find scum?]


[More general observations:  My personal way to get around coming across as defensive is to put yourself in a certain state of mind before replying.  If someone is pressuring/attacking you for something:
-Read thier post over
-Mentally respond with "meh"
-Shrug in response to thier post (also mentally)
-Know you're town (whether you truly are or not), so whatever they say can't possibly stick to you
-Now type your response in that mindset, but don't come across as arrogant, either
You want your response to elicit a reaction of "Oh, I guess that makes sense".  So you respond in a way that calmy and plainly explains your actions, yet doesn't put the other person on the defense because you're not being condescending either.  If I'm recalling correctly, my responses to Urist Imiknorris in BM33 follow this method.]

[Also, general IC advice of "never give up, because it's not unheard of to get out of an all-but-guaranteed lynch", and "don't say you can't think of anything to post, because that makes ICs mad, and there's always something you could be posting instead".]


borno@121:  [Come on man, reading comprehension.  I stated my posting restrictions back before the game started at least twice.]


Aaaand that catches me up.  Need to work on some other stuff now before I can post more. 

Extend to give some more time for you to absorb this info. 

[Shakerag]

[Activity, everyone.  You signed up for the game, so let's see you play it.]

borno, the more I read over our exchange, the more I can't help but wonder where you were getting I was referring to Deathsword from.  Your vote on BMC smells like a chainsaw, and your questioning of Deathsword about this whole Fiskav and "suspicion" thing feels like scumbuddy pussyfooting around. 

What's your case on BMC?  Is it solid enough that you didn't need to follow up with more questioning to him? 


Deathsword:  I didn't think much of it before, but you're focusing on Fiskav's suspicions of you an awful lot.  And not doing much scumhunting in the meantime.  Coupled with your early concern about giving the other players ammo to use against you (and your WIFOMy response to BMC back at post 57), I'm having trouble now not seeing you as scum that's trying badly to look like town.  If your attention is on Fiskav so much, why aren't you voting him?  Why no follow-up after your vote on BMC?

[A note:  A vote on someone does not have to mean (and really shouldn't mean) that you're done with that player.  Following through after voting someone can either confirm your suspicions (and get other people to vote with you), or it can make you realize that the person may not have been as scummy as you thought.]

[Teneb]

Shakerag: I haven't voted for fiskav yet since I'd like to keep my vote on BMC, who I am quite sure is scum. While fiskav has been strangely absent from this thread, I do not have much more to follow on unless I get an answer.
This brings me to...
IronyOwl, Chaos Armor and Theodolus: All of you have been active lately in the forum, yet you all seem content in sitting on the sidelines, keeping the atention on others. Why is that?

[Jim Groovester]

[4] blackmagechill: Chaos Armor, borno, Deathsword, Flying Dice
[1] Deathsword: IronyOwl
[2] Fiskav: blackmagechill, Theodolus
[1] borno: Shakerag

Day ends Today 9:00 PM MST.

Fiskav has requested a replacement.

[IronyOwl]

Extend. I totally did not intend to lurk for three days straight.

Don't have the energy to do anything proper at the moment, but I'll get back on that.

[Theodolus]

((AAAAGGH! I've started typing replies three different times and lost them due to hand slipping on the keyboard. Also still recovering from surgery, so if any of this sounds disjointed it's probably the pain meds. Just ask for clarification if needed.))

Answers-

Deathsword
I've been posting pretty regularly but as posted earlier in the thread I was out yesterday having surgery and have spent the day today either napping or in a somewhat dizzy state. I show active in the forums because I open them as soon as my laptop boots up and then I leave them up all day.

Shakerag
The questions I asked BMC helped me to smooth out my suspicions of him, so for me, yes they helped. Specifically the goal was to find out how he planned on altering his game play and then watching to see if he's actually following through on it. At this point, yes, he's changed how he's posting, but not in a good way.

Borno
My suspicion list is pretty flexible, but at this point the top three are:

• Fiskav: Stating he's going to scumhunt but failing to deliver. Using other player's questions to seem as though he's making an effort.
• Borno: For repeated failures to deliver. Becoming overly defensive and panicky when asked to explain his direction.
• BMC: Acting scummy in general, especially at the start of the game. More recently, throwing up huge walls of text that provide nothing helpful. Also, promising future content and failing to deliver.

Conclusions-

Despite the fact that I have a gut feeling BMC is a townie, I have no proof to back that stance up. I have to go with the evidence as I see it and go from there. That said, BMC has the scummiest feel to him and the most outright scummy moves so far so...
Unvote Fiskav

Vote Blackmagechill


PPE: Well, a replacement requested for one of my suspicious. Oh well. Also, Extend, if only to get a feel for the Fiskav replacement.