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[blackmagechill]

My bad if I read it wrong, but slips could be pretty common at this level. I haven't read many BM games. Fiskav has looked pretty scummy the whole way through, as outline by Irony and Theoldus. For those who will ask (if anyone) my suspicion list reads like this
1.Deathsword- reread the whole first page of play
2.ChaosArmor-reread the second and thirdish pages of play
3.Fiskav-Irony's and Theoldus' points, and what looks like a pretty huge slip
4.Flying Dice- trying to cover for Fiskav after that, although his vote for me and the way I look suspicious is pretty well founded

[Jim Groovester]

[4] blackmagechill: Chaos Armor, borno, Deathsword, Flying Dice
[1] Deathsword: IronyOwl
[1] Fiskav: blackmagechill

Day ends Monday 9:00 PM MST.

[blackmagechill]

If you guys lynch me, remember my hunches and suspicions. Seriously, I think I might be onto something somewhere.

[Theodolus]

Jim! ((I Unvoted Flying Dice a ways back. I didn't specify a name though, so that was probably my fault.))

While I'm here I might as well throw out a few more questions...

Fiskav
You say you're trying to find out who the scum are, but you aren't posting anything that might help you uncover more information. How do you expect to be able to figure anything out if you refuse to participate in scumhunting? What is your method for determining whether a player is scummy or not? As of right now from what I can see, all your arguments against being the scum you so clearly are boil down to "Nu uh! I'm trying my best to find them!" and then doing nothing of the sort.

BMC
So you agree with Flying Dice that you are coming across as extremely scummy? What do you plan on doing to appear less scummy in the future?

[blackmagechill]

So far people are using my lack of voting in RVS and increased voting in the D1 actual vote stage. So vote like a senior in RVS and then don't when it matters I guess??? (that last part's a joke, but people are angry becuase I've moved my vote around, which I guess I'll stop doing).

[blackmagechill]

I forgot to mention to appear less defensive. I looked like it in questioning which raised some eyebrows, and it seems to me that the best defense is to either not have one because you don't need it unless you're scum, or to redirect to someone else, which also sort of looks like a scum tell.

[IronyOwl]

Extend if you say so.


Deathsword:

I'll start with the why: I wasn't completely sure and I certainly wasn't confident enough about what I though to share with others, especially since it carried the risk of making me look stupid and even making my situation worse. So yes, it was partially out of fear and I admit that.

No good. If you don't try, you're not going to get better, and if you don't want to say it out loud, you probably need to get better.

Now, what I did get from that: He seemed to misunderstand (intentionally or not) most of my statements. If it was because they were confusing for any reason, I apologize.

And did you bring up that he's misunderstanding your statements and try to establish why?

Why is everything. It's obviously not possible to completely read his mind, but usually when someone's doing something for "some reason," it's a good prompt to figure out more about them, not lynch them because it maybe possibly means they're scum. The case of misunderstanding statements is especially dangerous (and noteworthy) because it might mean they're scum trying for any angle or to wriggle out of something, or it might mean you're being unclear- and obviously, that's a pretty vital distinction you need to be making.

It's also possibly interesting because it can clue you in to how they're thinking, though obviously that's not something you can gather useful info from every time.

However, he decided to FoS and later vote me because I "felt wierd". Now, this is (or was) RVS, thus voting to pressure is normal. However, when questioned himself he was clearly defensive, even angry, and kept re-stating the same things, mostly how I "felt wierd". This has led me to belive there is something off here and thus I hereby clearly and fully accuse him of being scum due to behaviour I belive to be that of scum.

My question to fiskav still stands, I'd like to know why.

Problem: That's where your questioning stopped. You're not, as far as I can tell, gathering any new data on him, which seems to mean you're absolutely certain of his alignment. Does the information you have so far make you 100% certain, or is there still room for error? (Hint: If he made that serious a mistake, there's always room for error; if scum can dead out themselves, townies can damn well incriminate themselves fairly well).

You're also not questioning anyone else, which means you're not moving forward at all. Yes, you're waiting for an answer from Fiskav, and yes, that answer might help you get a read on him. But sitting on a single question, even when you think you're voting scum, is not good hunting.


Fiskav:

I have no clue who the scum is.  As a townie, I'm trying my best to find out who is scum, which is proving to be very difficult.

This is probably related to the fact that you're not asking very many questions. Surely there's someone and/or something you're curious about, and would like to hear explanations from and/or about?

Remember, you're trying to get a read on other players by watching what they do, and especially by asking them questions. It's not the sort of thing that will magically provide answers if you wait long enough; more like a strategy game where you're trying to figure out what the other players have or are doing by prodding them and trying to see through their feints. Sitting there and hoping one of them drops his cards is not the way to go about that.

Unvote Chaos Armor due to lack of evidence.  I really have no clue who is the scummiest person now.  Really, none.  But I'm just going to say right now that since the scum already know who is and who isn't a townie, for the uninformed townies to know, I'm a townie.

Publicly declaring yourself town is scummy and useless. It's not going to convince anyone, and it may very well convince some people that you're panicking scum. It's like if you're looking around for a thief, and someone suddenly blurts out that they're not a thief or anything. Pretty much your first thought is that they're a nervous thief.

Whether I am being hypocritical or not is not the answer I am trying to find out.  What I am trying to determine is who the scum are.  Chaos, I am becoming more confident that it is not you, simply due to your offensive nature that makes it seem like you are aiming for a town victory.

I doubt he cares whether you want to know if you're being hypocritical, and I don't think deflecting the question is going to fix that.

I'm also curious why Chaos Armor has gone from your number one scumpick for sidelining to being offensively pro-town in your eyes.


blackmagechill:

Why wouldn't he be aiming for a town victory? This is probably the biggest slip I've ever seen. Fiskav, that was pretty deadly mistake.

Because he's scum? Why don't you explain more thoroughly why this could only be something scum would say.

My bad if I read it wrong, but slips could be pretty common at this level. I haven't read many BM games. Fiskav has looked pretty scummy the whole way through, as outline by Irony and Theoldus.

Then why didn't you mention those reasons and that you were lifting them off me and Theodolus, instead of not mentioning them and going for something completely different? Was there some reason you didn't think bringing them up was necessary or a good idea? You do want him lynched and think he's scum, right, so why wouldn't you explain why to everyone else?

For those who will ask (if anyone) my suspicion list reads like this
1.Deathsword- reread the whole first page of play
2.ChaosArmor-reread the second and thirdish pages of play
3.Fiskav-Irony's and Theoldus' points, and what looks like a pretty huge slip

If the answer's sitting right there, we hardly need you to point it out to us, now do we?

This also means that if people don't already agree with you, reading a few pages is not going to magically change their mind. If you want to convince people, you have to specifically convince people, not just gesture in a direction and claim the evidence is obvious.

4.Flying Dice- trying to cover for Fiskav after that, although his vote for me and the way I look suspicious is pretty well founded

Better, but a more thorough explanation would be nice.

In all cases, this brings up the issue of why, if these are so suspicious, you haven't gone into them yourself. You have/are going after Fiskav for one of the reasons you've mentioned, but otherwise you either haven't bothered to actually hunt any of these people (this is the first time you've mentioned any suspicion at Flying Dice at all) or have given up on them already (been a while since you've questioned Deathsword).

If you can't be bothered to hunt them for this, why would we?

I forgot to mention to appear less defensive. I looked like it in questioning which raised some eyebrows, and it seems to me that the best defense is to either not have one because you don't need it unless you're scum, or to redirect to someone else, which also sort of looks like a scum tell.

The best defense is to explain what you're doing and move on. Ignoring accusations makes it look like you don't have any defense and are just hoping it'll go away. Trying to deflect suspicions onto someone else makes it look like you don't have any defense and are hoping you can train attention onto someone else for you. Spending an inordinate amount of time defending yourself while doing nothing else makes it look like you're very concerned about your own survival but apathetic about actually finding scum.

Your defensiveness came from a combination of the second (trying to deflect attention) and looking like you were nervous in your responses. But then, you knew about that because of Deathsword's fallacy crap, right? Same basic idea.


Also, I hope not summarily lynching you for not answering my questions is what's giving you the idea that ignoring them works. In a real game you'd probably be in a noose already for that; I've been letting them slide because you're new and you seem to be at least understanding the "this is a bad idea" part of them, but in an actual game I'd want to hear your reasoning at the time even if you admitted that they were poor suspicions and had moved on.

[Chaos Armor]

Extend


Theodolus:

PfP so just a few questions I wanted to get out there.

ChaosArmor
As a town member what is the most important thing you could be doing?

Scumhunting. The best way to catch scum is to scumhunt. Ask questions, pursue suspicions, etc.


blackmagechill:

You say you've been suspicious of him the entire game. How is this possible? You started attacking him for his first post(A perfectly fine post for a BM) and the reason, because he only asked one question. I fail to see how this is scummy. And if you thought him suspicious why didn't you vote him in the first place?

I've been suspicious since he freaked out over the one question thing. One question is a read because it shows you have laxed suspicions. Using hypocritical statements to defend your actions is a bigger one. And, having the one person you questioned throw a pressure vote on someone pressuring you is a pretty huge read.

You still didn't answer my question of why you didn't pressure vote him in the first place.

If you guys lynch me, remember my hunches and suspicions. Seriously, I think I might be onto something somewhere.

This is usually a scum tactic to avoid getting lynched by saying that we'll regret lynching you. Why use it if you are town? Why use it at all?


Deathsword:

Where are you?


borno:

I haven't seen you post any questions since page 6. Any reason why you are actively lurking?

[Shakerag]

Hello everyone from Wisconsin Dells!  I'm posting this from my DSi, which is about as painful & awkward as you can imagine.  I can only really respond post-by-post.

borno@79: You seem to think that you could just start attacking someone else to take heat off of your scumbuddy.  What if the player going after your scumbuddy was an IC or another very aggressive player?  What would you do then?

Erm, I suppose you mean this hypothetically?
I guess I wouldn't be confident in defending against an IC, but I guess I could handle an aggressive player. I see you are referring to my post. Why are you jumping to conclusions that I am in a scumteam with deathsword? I thought that was a bad thing to do so early in the game.

Where did I imply anything about you and DS?  I was just expanding on the question you were already asked.  That feels a bit panicky, borno.

[borno]

borno@79: You seem to think that you could just start attacking someone else to take heat off of your scumbuddy.  What if the player going after your scumbuddy was an IC or another very aggressive player?  What would you do then?

Erm, I suppose you mean this hypothetically?
I guess I wouldn't be confident in defending against an IC, but I guess I could handle an aggressive player. I see you are referring to my post. Why are you jumping to conclusions that I am in a scumteam with deathsword? I thought that was a bad thing to do so early in the game.

Where did I imply anything about you and DS?  I was just expanding on the question you were already asked.  That feels a bit panicky, borno.

Huh? I'm confused. I assumed that you were talking about deathsword in that post. Oops. By the way, what question are you referring to?

borno:

I haven't seen you post any questions since page 6. Any reason why you are actively lurking?

Well, I don't know what to say that hasn't already been said. But also because I don't really have time for long posts. Since its the weekends now, I'll probably be able to add more content to my posts.

[borno]

EBWOP: Extend. I'm going to bed now, so I'll write a post up tomorrow.

[Teneb]

Excuse my lurking, but I was on medicine and didn't trust myself not to say anything stupid. Anyway:

Fiskav: Back one or two pages I asked you why you considered me suspicious. You seem to have avoided that question. In fact you also accused other people without stating any evidence either. Why is that? Are you hiding something?

[blackmagechill]

Because he's scum? Why don't you explain more thoroughly why this could only be something scum would say.

Because... I was posting that really late I guess. I feel really stupid, but it was very late, and, well, you know what lack of sleep does to people.

Then why didn't you mention those reasons and that you were lifting them off me and Theodolus, instead of not mentioning them and going for something completely different? Was there some reason you didn't think bringing them up was necessary or a good idea? You do want him lynched and think he's scum, right, so why wouldn't you explain why to everyone else?

The thought didn't cross my mind actually. Duly noted.

If the answer's sitting right there, we hardly need you to point it out to us, now do we?

This also means that if people don't already agree with you, reading a few pages is not going to magically change their mind. If you want to convince people, you have to specifically convince people, not just gesture in a direction and claim the evidence is obvious.

Right.

In all cases, this brings up the issue of why, if these are so suspicious, you haven't gone into them yourself. You have/are going after Fiskav for one of the reasons you've mentioned, but otherwise you either haven't bothered to actually hunt any of these people (this is the first time you've mentioned any suspicion at Flying Dice at all) or have given up on them already (been a while since you've questioned Deathsword).

If you can't be bothered to hunt them for this, why would we?

I went into the whole death sword thing, but I wasn't actively pursuing it (and rightfully so, I probably would've said something that would've decredited my suspicions).

The best defense is to explain what you're doing and move on. Ignoring accusations makes it look like you don't have any defense and are just hoping it'll go away. Trying to deflect suspicions onto someone else makes it look like you don't have any defense and are hoping you can train attention onto someone else for you. Spending an inordinate amount of time defending yourself while doing nothing else makes it look like you're very concerned about your own survival but apathetic about actually finding scum.

Your defensiveness came from a combination of the second (trying to deflect attention) and looking like you were nervous in your responses. But then, you knew about that because of Deathsword's fallacy crap, right? Same basic idea.

Right. Don't deflect suspicions, just explain the way you're doing things that would look scummy.

Also, I hope not summarily lynching you for not answering my questions is what's giving you the idea that ignoring them works. In a real game you'd probably be in a noose already for that; I've been letting them slide because you're new and you seem to be at least understanding the "this is a bad idea" part of them, but in an actual game I'd want to hear your reasoning at the time even if you admitted that they were poor suspicions and had moved on.

I feel like I'm already pretty well into the noose.

[Theodolus]

Right, well I think this is needed then: Extend

Borno
What happened to the post you were planning on putting up? You've been pretty inactive this entire game and then the one time you promise to put up some content you fail to deliver. Gotta say that you're quickly moving up in my suspicions list. Care to try to explain away your scummy behavior this time?

BMC
Giving up now? Certainly sounds like it from your last post. Not to mention that your response to IronyOwl's suggestion on how to not appear scummy seems a bit flippant. I'm not positive at this point but, combining that with your previous post warning us in a roundabout way that we'll regret lynching you seems to come across as a bit panicky. I feel like you may be trying to play a sympathy card here because you don't believe that you can escape lynching in any other way.

[blackmagechill]

I'm not trying to play sympathy here, I'm just making arrangements. Sort of like packing for a trip, so to speak. I'm not warning you against lynching me so much as stating that, if that happens (which it looks like it probably will), my suspicions and things I have said should probably get a once over from everyone if they become relevant again. Which I believe they will.

I'll give a reread and post a whole bunch of questions tomorrow.