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[blackmagechill]

Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.

@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.

So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.

[borno]

borno: Can you beat your post record from BYOP mafia this time?

Yes. I've got one post to go before I beat it.

borno: If you were a doctor who would you save? The cleanest looking player or the scummiest looking player?

By cleanest, I assume you mean 'Least scummy.'
I would go for the clean person, Because scum would keep the scummy person alive in hopes of making a mislynch. And if he is actually scum, then I would of wasted my protect on him.

[Flying Dice]

Flying Dice:

blackmagechill: Who are your initial guesses as potential scum? Why?
Deathsword: What do you find to be the most suspicious in D1? Why?
Shakerag: What do you think the greatest town mistake in BMXXXIII was? Why?

What's the point of these questions? Two of them are based on something that probably hasn't had enough time to meaningfully happen yet, one's very vague and based on a prior game.

The first two are simply the start of me building an understanding of how those two post/think, as I haven't played with either of them before. If I can establish a 'normal' baseline for them, it is easier to tell when they're full of it. The questions are largely irrelevant; the point is to get people talking, either them responding to the questions or other people calling me on the questions being pointless.

As for the third, I'm honestly curious. Shake was a (scum) IC in the last BM, and there were a number of things that killed town; more than anything else it is an opportunity for a point to be made about things that can get townies killed.

Flying Dice:

Theodolus, IronyOwl, and Chaos Armor: All three of you are online, but none of you have even made an opening post for the RVS yet. Have you not noticed that the game has started, or are you trying to sit back and sideline, letting newtownies target each other instead of you?

I've noticed and have been compiling my post but I've also been taking care of important business on The Last Knights (MMORTS).

Theodolus, IronyOwl, and Chaos Armor: All three of you are online, but none of you have even made an opening post for the RVS yet. Have you not noticed that the game has started, or are you trying to sit back and sideline, letting newtownies target each other instead of you?

I'm doing other things, of course.

Both fair enough, and what I expected.

Now then...

Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.

@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.

So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.

You're looking awful defensive here. Both the vote and FoS looked like pretty typical RVS behavior to me, but you responded with what appears to be a very early OMGUS indeed; is it just coincidence that you voted Deathsword right after he FoSed you and Chaos Armor voted you, rather than back when your so-called "suspicions" were formed? That looks less like you accusing him and more like you trying to get pressure off of your back. Randomly applied pressure is perfectly normal in the RVS, and being this defensive about it just makes you look scummy. Pretty much the only thing that would have made this look worse is if your vote had been directed at Chaos Armor, but I suppose that was a bit too obvious for scum like you.

[Theodolus]

Theodolus:

BMC: What do you think you most need to improve on in mafia games?
FlyingDice: Given a choice would you rather play scum or town?
IronyOwl: What is the most important thing for a mafia player to remember?

Odd that you've got the best RVS questions so far. You ask one player what his primary playing weakness is, one player what an aspect of their preferred playstyle is, and one what they feel is most important to either players or scum players in general. Though, you should probably bold to catch people's attention.

So, where'd you come up with these questions, having never played before?

IronyOwl: thanks for the suggestion, I'll take it to heart. As for your question, I have read through a few mafia games (saw this game in Jim's sig in the BYOP2 game) and also read the beginning of BMXXXIII to pick up some RVS advice. I don't like looking like a complete newb if I can at all help it.

BMC: I have to say that seeing your play style in I believe BYOP2 you certainly aren't making any major changes this go around. It almost seems as though you are trying to intentionally seem townie by aggressively pursuing the first person to post after you. However, you did essentially the same thing in BYOP2 and were lynched as a townie. It's suspicious enough to FoS you though.

PPE: very interested in your response to Flying Dice at this point as well...

Borno: Assume you were the godfather and another scum was being fingered. Would you try to protect him by casting suspicion elsewhere or would you Bus him to gain credibility?

Theodolus, IronyOwl, and Chaos Armor: All three of you are online, but none of you have even made an opening post for the RVS yet. Have you not noticed that the game has started, or are you trying to sit back and sideline, letting newtownies target each other instead of you?

I occasionally forget to close all my tabs out on my work computer, as was the case here.

((Aside: I'll more than likely be completely out of the game on Tuesday as I am going in for wrist surgery that morning. General anesthesia probably means I'll be mentally checked out for the day.))

[borno]

Deathsword:

I didn't really know wheter or not asking a lot of questions in my first post would be a good thing or not, so I decided to stick with just one question.

Townies are not supposed to care all too much about what might look townie and what might not; They're supposed to be more concerned about actively scum hunting.

BMC:

Just a gift to Deathsword for the morning: Just because you had a different intention doesn't mean you succeeded.

@Irony: Your post provided some much needed advice and a good bit of review over the events so far. I will say that I should've voted for RVS but didn't feel the need to and didn't want to start up OMGUS that early.

Why, then did you vote Deathsword over a FoS? It would of been fine to vote for him earlier as an RVS vote, when you you had 'Suspicions' over what he was saying. But then when he FoS's you you suddenly vote for him.

Theodolus:

Borno: Assume you were the godfather and another scum was being fingered. Would you try to protect him by casting suspicion elsewhere or would you Bus him to gain credibility?

In most cases I would start attacking someone else, to take the heat off of him. It would help is the cop is still alive (If there is a cop.)
I'm going to start doing my homework now, so I won't be able to post until its finished.

[Fiskav]

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[blackmagechill]

So, let's look at what I'm basing my suspicions on here.
1. I said that he only asked one question in RVS, which was weird and showed he had few suspicions.
2. He retaliated that he was afraid of fallacies or something, and said that only mentioning three players would be suspicious, which was hypocritical and meant he was/ should've been by that l ogic suspicious of Flying Dice, Theoldus, and me.
3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?
4. In that same post he said that if he was scum he would try to look town instead of looking like scum, which is circular logic (I can't be scum because scum are supposed to look like town, so I don't look like town, and am therefore scum).
5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.
6.Chaos Armor jumps on me for voting Deathsword, who's only question was on him. After all that flailing, he tried to cover for Deathsword and voted me. That was the nail in the coffin.

[Theodolus]

FlyingDice: Given a choice would you rather play scum or town?

I would rather play town like I am in this game, because I can concentrate on learning to scumhunt rather than trying to hide.

I have to say FlyingDice that re-reading through the posts so far, yours comes across as rather suspicious. Roleclaiming so early on? I wasn't asking what you were just what you would prefer to play in general. Granted you gave a good argument for your answer, but then went on to hand out more info than was asked for. Suspicious, when said info did nothing but claim innocence when I didn't even FoS you. So let's pursue this then. Why did you feel it was necessary to claim townie at that point?

[Flying Dice]

FlyingDice: Given a choice would you rather play scum or town?

I would rather play town like I am in this game, because I can concentrate on learning to scumhunt rather than trying to hide.

I have to say FlyingDice that re-reading through the posts so far, yours comes across as rather suspicious. Roleclaiming so early on? I wasn't asking what you were just what you would prefer to play in general. Granted you gave a good argument for your answer, but then went on to hand out more info than was asked for. Suspicious, when said info did nothing but claim innocence when I didn't even FoS you. So let's pursue this then. Why did you feel it was necessary to claim townie at that point?

You... you do realize that stating that I'm town isn't a roleclaim, correct? If I had said something like "I'm sure glad I'm the cop", that would have been a roleclaim (as well as being bloody stupid); I know that I am town, but noboby has proof either way, just as it is for every other townie. Saying "You said you are town. Therefore you are scum!" is not good reasoning, and furthermore, it incites WIFOM. Why are you trying to spread confusion?

blackmagechill:

So, let's look at what I'm basing my suspicions on here.
1. I said that he only asked one question in RVS, which was weird and showed he had few suspicions.

Starting your RVS with a single question rather than multiple ones is hardly abnormal, looking back over past games. It mostly falls to personal preference; do you want to trawl for responses or focus your initial pressure on one person? Not particularly suspicious, but I suppose it could be enough to start investigating. Fair enough.

2. He retaliated that he was afraid of fallacies or something, and said that only mentioning three players would be suspicious, which was hypocritical and meant he was/ should've been by that l ogic suspicious of Flying Dice, Theoldus, and me.

I will agree that that was a load of it, and seemed like he was trying to throw up a smokescreen.

Deathsword:

I'm sorry I'm not well schooled on my fallacies. Maybe I'll do some research when I become an internet politician. Which particular fallacy would you be referring to here (Strawman is what it looks like I guess)? I'm trying to say that your fears would be unfounded if you were town.

I'm referring to Burden of Guilt

Burden of proof would ordinarily fall on the townies (i.e. defendant) in Mafia, as it is best to treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent. Unless you're scum, in which case you already know who your scumbuddy is and don't want to work to hide from town. Of course, townies shouldn't be preoccupied with defending themselves from accusations; they should be accusing others.

3. Mentioned that he was paranoid about questions being used against him. If you were town, why would you fear questioning, especially in RVS?

I went back and dug up the relevant quote.

All I'm saying is, and, granted this is RVS which really doesn't matter, you weren't throwing around as many questions as everyone else, and it seemed like you had relaxed suspicions. Now, maybe it's just me, but if someone isn't suspicious in a game of mafia, then that person probably knows more than everyone else.

Let's assume that I am scum for a moment, wouldn't I try to act non-supiciously? Wouldn't I have asked more question in order to pass as town, throwing random guesses at nearly everyone? From what I know, a scum player would try as hard as they could to look like town, perhaps a bit too hard?

What if my single question was a result of paranoia, of fear that someone might use such questions against me, not unlike you are doing now?

Deathsword:
You're bringing up the Too Townie fallacy to excuse you looking scummy? And why the hell are you worried about people being suspicious of you, if you're town? Deathsword, I'm not positive, but for now you've managed to hit the top of my list of suspicions. Why are you so nervous about attention being on you?

5.After all that cracking and freaking out, I kind of felt that it was little bit weird (or it was more visible at this point) that he was so afraid of seeming suspicious, and it did. I did FoS.

You're freaking out about people being suspicious of you as well. Why?

[Theodolus]

You... you do realize that stating that I'm town isn't a roleclaim, correct? If I had said something like "I'm sure glad I'm the cop", that would have been a roleclaim (as well as being bloody stupid); I know that I am town, but noboby has proof either way, just as it is for every other townie. Saying "You said you are town. Therefore you are scum!" is not good reasoning, and furthermore, it incites WIFOM. Why are you trying to spread confusion?

Hm. Good point, and you are right, I messed up my terminology there. It still struck me as being a bit odd that right off the bat you started claiming townie. In the games I've read that never does anything to alleviate suspicion and in most cases just ends up with someone calling the claimant out on it. However, because I mostly wanted to see what you would respond like under pressure and you haven't given me any other reason to suspect you yet... Unvote.

Fiskav
You've been rather quiet. So you've been on long enough to answer one question, but other than that couldn't be bothered to come up with at least one question for anyone. I understand that RVS is a bit chaotic and it's difficult to learn anything, but it's impossible to win without saying anything. So what's been keeping you so preoccupied that you can't begin scumhunting or at least participating in the RVS? Are you trying to keep from drawing attention to yourself? Scared you might slip up and give a scumtell on D1?

[Teneb]

Deathsword:
Deathsword:
You're bringing up the Too Townie fallacy to excuse you looking scummy? And why the hell are you worried about people being suspicious of you, if you're town? Deathsword, I'm not positive, but for now you've managed to hit the top of my list of suspicions. Why are you so nervous about attention being on you?

If it seemed like I brought the Too Townie up, I apologize, but in my exchange with blackmagechill I actually drew attention to myself, so why I'd be nervous about drawing it to me if said attention was already there in the first place?

blackmagechill: I feel must clarify something, you repatedly state that I said I am afraid fallacies. I didn't say that, I said that I greatly dislike one very specific kind of fallacy.

Maybe I did a bad WIFOM on D1, but this is begginer's mafia, so screwing up at some point is inevitable.

[Teneb]

Furthermore, blackmagechill seems very defensive, even somwhat angry, when questioned by people other than me, so, for that, he gets my vote.

[IronyOwl]

Unvote Theodolus. Looking good so far.


Deathsword:

In my defence, considering the points IronyOwl brought up:

I didn't really know wheter or not asking a lot of questions in my first post would be a good thing or not, so I decided to stick with just one question.

When blackmagechill decided to declare himself supicious of my post, I decided to see what I could get out of him by making some wild (by my standards, at least) assumptions.

Going to FoS blackmagechill due to what I said above.

Um. You haven't actually explained what your results were, though. What is it you're suspicious of?


blackmagechill:

So, we have Deathsword WIFOMing with very little suspicion of his friends and Chaos Armor going after someone (me) for questioning Deathsword a bit. I'd also like to point out that Chaos Armor is the only person Deathsword questioned, and stated fears about his questions being used against him. Maybe he wanted to question someone he felt comfortable with. On D1 you shouldn't feel comfortable with anyone, unless you're either masons or scum. And there aren't any masons here.

This would probably be better off in accusation form, as that's better suited to refining your suspicions. Right now it seems like you're trying to just suggest to the rest of us that maybe Deathsword and Chaos Armor is the scumteam, which is problematic for two reasons. One, it doesn't really help you gain new information; other than trying to sway others to lynching Deathsword and then Chaos Armor, it doesn't really have any upside versus taking these accusations to him/them directly. Two, it's a pretty weak connection so far, so it's not really a good lynch argument in the first place.

You're also not answering Chaos Armor's question to you. Is that because you feel it's rhetorical, because you have answered it elsewhere, because he's scum and can thus be ignored, or something else?

6.Chaos Armor jumps on me for voting Deathsword, who's only question was on him. After all that flailing, he tried to cover for Deathsword and voted me. That was the nail in the coffin.

Voting someone for something someone else is doing is also fairly dangerous, as it tends to jump to conclusions. Deathsword doesn't need to be scum for Chaos Armor to be scum or act scummily.


Deathsword:

Furthermore, blackmagechill seems very defensive, even somwhat angry, when questioned by people other than me, so, for that, he gets my vote.

This would probably be better off in accusation form. As it stands, it's not really doing anything; and what's more, because he's the only one you're questioning, that means you're not doing anything at all at this point. You need to keep doing things.

As for why it's better as an accusation than a statement, an accusation helps you continue to gather information. If you're so absolutely certain that he's scum that you're willing to lynch him, you might want to make a more thorough and compelling case (and it would probably be a bad idea this early on), as well as moving on to try to find his partner. If not, you're probably going to want to continue getting reads off him, which doesn't really happen if you just declare him scum and then sit there.


Fiskav, no questions for anyone else? Who do you currently think is most, second most, least, and second least scummy?

[Fiskav]

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[Fiskav]

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