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[Finn]

I'm not sure if this is a bug or just missing information from the wiki.

I have been running a single couple fort for about 6 years of game time.  In the first 6 months I killed 5 of the starting 7, then I've killed each migration wave that's come ever since.  However, they keep coming.  My pop_cap has been set to both 0 and 1 at different times, through numerous shutdowns and restarts, and I continue to receive migrants every single season.  Each wave is composed of at least 5 dwarves, usually 6.  I'm running 34.07 with LNP and Phoebus, however I don't think either of those should matter.   The liaison is arriving and leaving as normal.

My theory is that below a minimum population (I'm guessing, 7) the pop_cap is ignored and migration waves are hard-coded.  I believe that as my fortress grows (through children) that eventually these migration waves will stop. 

Before I go about changing the wiki or filing a bug report, I'd like to know if anyone else can confirm this behavior.

Edit:  A migration wave has arrived (bringing me to 7) just before the liaison arrived.  I am keeping these alive until the liaison leaves the map.  This is my 7th liaison.  I will see if the migrants stop coming after he leaves.

[knutor]

Did ya kill your mountainhome trader and his troops in that timespan, aswell? 

If not, your rating with the mountainhome is too high.  Or high enough to merit a migrant chance.  Or worldgen until ya get a mountainhome at war.  They might lose, and without a mountainhome, no migrants will arrive. 

I don't know that just losing dwarfs to death, will stop migration.  I know that lots of dead dwarfs will lower migration RATES, but not stop it.

[greycat]

My pop_cap has been set to both 0 and 1 at different times, through numerous shutdowns and restarts, and I continue to receive migrants every single season.

If you're trying to !!Science!! it, you need to pick one and leave it alone.  The current theory (AFAIK) is that your population is compared to your population cap at various times, and migrant waves are generated if the population is under the cap.  Those migrant waves will take time to reach you.

Since you've been moving the cap, you don't know whether your migrant waves were generated when you had it set to 1 or set to 0.  And setting it to 0 might be like setting it to infinity (we aren't sure of that either!).

[Finn]

Did ya kill your mountainhome trader and his troops in that timespan, aswell? 

No

If not, your rating with the mountainhome is too high.  Or high enough to merit a migrant chance.  Or worldgen until ya get a mountainhome at war.  They might lose, and without a mountainhome, no migrants will arrive. 

I don't know that just losing dwarfs to death, will stop migration.  I know that lots of dead dwarfs will lower migration RATES, but not stop it.

Well, I'm not expecting the dwarf deaths to stop the migration, I'm expecting the pop_cap of 1 and the population of 2 to stop the migrations.  As an aside though, the created wealth of the fortress is 19,300*, the imported wealth is 6,151* and the exported wealth is 1,738*. 

[Finn]

My pop_cap has been set to both 0 and 1 at different times, through numerous shutdowns and restarts, and I continue to receive migrants every single season.

If you're trying to !!Science!! it, you need to pick one and leave it alone.  The current theory (AFAIK) is that your population is compared to your population cap at various times, and migrant waves are generated if the population is under the cap.  Those migrant waves will take time to reach you.

Since you've been moving the cap, you don't know whether your migrant waves were generated when you had it set to 1 or set to 0.  And setting it to 0 might be like setting it to infinity (we aren't sure of that either!).

True.  I should have been more clear.  In the first year it was set to zero, but after the migrations kept coming I moved it to 1.  It has been at 1 for several years now, through several restarts.  So 0 didn't stop them, and now 1 hasn't.

Update:  So as I mentioned above, I received a migration wave immediately before the liaison appeared which brought my population to 7.  I let them live until after the liaison had visited and left, then killed them.  Now in mid-spring I have just received another wave. 

[knutor]

Don't adjust the wiki just yet.  I reread your initial post and found a flaw in your method.  Here let me quote it, to start.

My pop_cap has been set to both 0 and 1 at different times, through numerous shutdowns and restarts, and I continue to receive migrants every single season.

In this world you have created, the pop_cap should have been set hard during World Generation, I do not understand how you've changed theh pop_cap inbetween gaming sessions within the same region/world. Finn, how did you do that?  Please explain how you change the pop_cap, which is set hard at worldgen when seeds are randomized and the terrain spline drawn.  You are doing it inbetween your sessions?  Or not?  This is not possible as far as I know.

I would guess, side by side analysis, with two worlds, set with identical seeds but different pop_caps parameters would be more ideal for migration comparison and contrast.  Embarks made at the same locations.  Even then, the initial 7 dwarf attributes and world history results would vary inconclusively. 

Maybe copy the region file, and play with two same histories?  What do you think?  I'd also be curious, what your [SET_LABOR_LISTS:SKILLS] were, as its my secret belief, certain dwarf skills are meant to appear on migrants, via their visits, at certain emergency times.  Could just be speculation on my part, but when there is no pick, no anvil, and no traders on the horizon because of a low civilization world generation, a migrant miner, sure would be a gift from heaven.

Wishing you the best, Knutor

edit: paragraphing, and spelling, syntax

[FuzzyZergling]

knutor: Pop cap is set in d_init, and like all settings in d_init is not a hard set and can be changed in all worlds by changing d_init.

[Finn]

Don't adjust the wiki just yet.  I reread your initial post and found a flaw in your method.  Here let me quote it, to start.

My pop_cap has been set to both 0 and 1 at different times, through numerous shutdowns and restarts, and I continue to receive migrants every single season.

In this world you have created, the pop_cap should have been set hard during World Generation, I do not understand how you've changed theh pop_cap inbetween gaming sessions within the same region/world. Finn, how did you do that?  Please explain how you change the pop_cap, which is set hard at worldgen when seeds are randomized and the terrain spline drawn.  You are doing it inbetween your sessions?  Or not?  This is not possible as far as I know.

I would guess, side by side analysis, with two worlds, set with identical seeds but different pop_caps parameters would be more ideal for migration comparison and contrast.  Embarks made at the same locations.  Even then, the initial 7 dwarf attributes and world history results would vary inconclusively. 

Maybe copy the region file, and play with two same histories?  What do you think?  I'd also be curious, what your [SET_LABOR_LISTS:SKILLS] were, as its my secret belief, certain dwarf skills are meant to appear on migrants, via their visits, at certain emergency times.  Could just be speculation on my part, but when there is no pick, no anvil, and no traders on the horizon because of a low civilization world generation, a migrant miner, sure would be a gift from heaven.

Wishing you the best, Knutor

edit: paragraphing, and spelling, syntax

Hi.  As FuzzyZergling said I edited POPULATION_CAP in dinit.txt before loading the game.  It does not appear that those values are restricted to world generation, they seem to be changeable at any time.

Migrations finally stopped in year 8.  Again I allowed the Autumn wave to live long enough for the liaison to come and go.  Because my couple had a second child, my population when he left was 10.  I slew 6 of them immediately after he left.  I (finally!) did not see a spring migration.

I'm not changing the wiki until I have a pretty good idea what is happening.  Also, as I mentioned in my op, I'm playing 34.07.  It doesn't make sense to change the wiki until the same behavior can be replicated in .11.

[i2amroy]

Since there has been a lot of misinformation thrown about in this thread here is the fast and simple way that the population cap in the init settings works.
1)First two waves are hardcoded and are not affected by the cap. Even if every other dwarf in the universe is dead, you will still get the first two waves.
2)When the diplomat leaves your fortress he reports your current population to the mountain homes. This means that if your diplomat dies in horrible ways before he can leave then migrants will keep coming. The diplomat has to make it out alive to stop the migrants.
3)If your current population is larger then the population cap, then the mountain homes will no longer send migrants out. If the mountain homes is far enough away from your current fort, you may still get another migrant wave or two that were "traveling" before the diplomat left but had not yet reached your fortress.
4)A population cap of 0 is ignored. Set it to 1 if you don't want migrants.
5)Population cap does not affect current births in your fortress. That is what the child cap is for.

What this means: You are going to get at least 2 migrant waves. Kill them if you want, but there is nothing you can do about it. The diplomat has to make it to your fort, talk to your leader, and leaver to stop the migrants. Let him do this at least once after your population has reached the cap. It will take a year or two before migrants stop showing up after the diplomat leaves.

[knutor]

Sorry for any confusion.  Hope your !Science! is yielding fruit.

[Finn]

Since there has been a lot of misinformation thrown about in this thread here is the fast and simple way that the population cap in the init settings works.
1)First two waves are hardcoded and are not affected by the cap. Even if every other dwarf in the universe is dead, you will still get the first two waves.
2)When the diplomat leaves your fortress he reports your current population to the mountain homes. This means that if your diplomat dies in horrible ways before he can leave then migrants will keep coming. The diplomat has to make it out alive to stop the migrants.
3)If your current population is larger then the population cap, then the mountain homes will no longer send migrants out. If the mountain homes is far enough away from your current fort, you may still get another migrant wave or two that were "traveling" before the diplomat left but had not yet reached your fortress.
4)A population cap of 0 is ignored. Set it to 1 if you don't want migrants.
5)Population cap does not affect current births in your fortress. That is what the child cap is for.

What this means: You are going to get at least 2 migrant waves. Kill them if you want, but there is nothing you can do about it. The diplomat has to make it to your fort, talk to your leader, and leaver to stop the migrants. Let him do this at least once after your population has reached the cap. It will take a year or two before migrants stop showing up after the diplomat leaves.

Thank you for that summary of the current understanding of how population_cap works.  That's how I understood it as well.  The reason I created this thread is because I've observed behavior that does not follow the rules you've set down above.  Either I've found a bug, something is corrupted in my setup, or there are further factors that are not yet understood.  I'm asking if anyone else has worked with minimal populations to determine if they have also observed similar behavior.  To recap the information in the previous posts:

Population = 2
POPULATION_CAP = 1
All migrants are killed immediately after arrival.
Meet with liaison each year, and each year he leaves the map.
Repeat for 7 years, migrants continue to arrive.

After work today I'll go back to the start and see if I can reproduce the behavior. 

[Finn]

Since there has been a lot of misinformation thrown about in this thread here is the fast and simple way that the population cap in the init settings works.

[snip]

4)A population cap of 0 is ignored. Set it to 1 if you don't want migrants.

This is false.

It will take a year or two before migrants stop showing up after the diplomat leaves.

I think you meant "might" or "can" instead of "will".  As it is, this is also false.

[i2amroy]

The first statement was going off of other's information, not personal experience and therefore I make not claim as to it's validity. I personally always play with migrants until I hit at least 80ish dwarves, so have never needed to set the population cap that low.

The second statement was set up so that it might apply better to the situation at hand. As it is a summary of the full length statement above it, it is possible (and is the case) that it will not be true in all situations. The full length statement that is summarizes, however, is true in all situations according to both my personal and the group's collective knowledge.

[Finn]

Yes, I apologize for the brevity of my post, it seems rude.  It was very late by the time I finished reproducing the tests.  I was trying to point out the irony of propegating mis-information in a post that begins by complaining about mis-information.

Here is the test that I ran last night to verify that POPULATION_CAP:0 is valid:

Preconditions:
DF 34.07, Phoebus, DFHack, DwarfTherapist
POPULATION_CAP:0 in d_init.txt

Year 262 (first year of fortress)
Population: 7
Summer:  migrants arrive - population 15
Autumn: migrants arrive - population 22, liaison visits and leaves
Winter: No migrants

Year 263
Spring: no migrants
Summer: no migrants
Autumn: no migrants

Conclusion:  POPULATION_CAP:0 is not ignored.

Next I will work on determining if a minimum population must be maintained to prevent migrations.  I'm pretty sure that there is a minimum population under which POPULATION_CAP is ignored.

[knutor]

I hope your results prove a minimum other than zero, exists.  For the shear sake of linking the 7 embark population to the mountainhome.  Or maintaining that link, I would hope it would never go below 1, and if it did, I would hope all the mountainhome owned (items), be stripped of their parenthesis.  Anotherwords, how could the embarkers maintain a linkup to mountainhome X with zero population.  When there is more than one dwarven mountainhome, say three mountainhomes, X, Y, and Z for instance?  This game has no banners or symbols of lineage.  The life and looks of these first dwellers, are it.  If the min pop cap fell to zero, who's keeping the affiliation alive.  That gene pool is over, isn't it?  How can a link be established that would subcatagorize all the unowned (items), as well as unowned named pets from visiting visitors, with a zero population, no banners, no knowledge archives and no genepool as proof.  Remember there are no DNA tests in the works here, this is supposed to be dark age tech.. 

I just wanna warn ya also, Finn.  If your using Therapist to find the migration wave date, ya might not want to do that, as I have found it misreport, migration seasons for dwarfs more than once now.  It is not dependable as a source of migration information.  Something realtime might prove to be a better tool.  Not sure what utilities are realtime, and what might be better, but have you tried that one people use to snip out unburiable ghosts?  Runesmith.  With it you can genocide probably more easily, hard to say about migration data being more trustworthy, however.  Good luck, Knutor

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59056.0

edit: removed old guy humor and forgetfullness, lol