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[Flying Dice]

Here's one with a pretty decent summary of it, though it isn't very specific. Though the same general conclusions I've heard quite often from a variety of sources online.

So what were you calling BS on, exactly? Pretty much everyone in the past page or two has either been saying "Religion doesn't really have much bearing on how good people are." or "Religion is for people who need reasons to be good people."; the gist of the article was that "Generally speaking, secular areas have more progressive people and lower crime rates, but this really doesn't mean too much-we're not trying to say that secularism is better, just that statistics can be cherrypicked to fit preconceptions."

The point of the article was to denounce statements arguing that religious people are inherently more moral/ethical/whatever. I don't see anyone here saying that; mostly the opposite, rather. 

[alway]

"Religion is for people who need reasons to be good people."

This bit. The statistics show it to be nonsense, as religion doesn't affect whether or not they are good people.

[Willfor]

Except I don't need a reason to be a good person and yet I am still religious.

My existence just blew the hell out of that point.

[Leafsnail]

The point that noone was making.

[Willfor]

It was a one-liner directed entirely at one line.

"Religion is for people who need reasons to be good people."

I'm not attempting to be serious here, or I would have made a much bigger post.

[Leafsnail]

He wasn't making that point though.  It is in inverted commas.  There is no need to hold yourself up as proof against a straw man point that noone was making.

[Willfor]

Am I just not allowed to make a joke on this board? Because that's what it's coming to!

It might not have been a funny joke, but this will be the second reply I have made that has stated that: I was not at all being serious.

[MrWiggles]

Ugh.

Thursday evening, on May 26, a Palmdale, California woman, 33-year-old Allaire McDougall, allegedly tried to drown her 8-year-old son, telling him it was "the end of the world."

This is why I can't stand charlatan assholes like this guy.
Edit: and here's a link to the story: http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-palmdale-attempted-drowning,0,7886741.story

This is close to where I live.

[Fenrir]

Willfor, when he posted “Religion is for people who need reasons to be good people,” he means that religion is of utility only to such people, and no one else needs it. It was the compression of longer posts into a single sentence, so some ambiguity of meaning is expected.

Also, “I was just joking,” and feigning persecution is a common tactic, and your post, even upon inspection, does not look at all like a joke, and you have been given no reason to suppose that your jokes are now impermissible or that such is what “it’s coming to!” so I think I can be forgiven for the difficulty I have in believing you.

I now soften the tension and accusitive tone with a series of silly emoticons:

[MaximumZero]

So, Willfor, just out of (very serious) curiosity, what do you get out of religion? I'm not trying to bait or flame you or start anything, I'd just like to know what makes religious people tick. I deconverted at a very early age, so I'm really not sure why people are compelled to turn to religion.

[MrWiggles]

I bet its largely social, and or tied in with his family

[MaximumZero]

I bet its largely social, and or tied in with his family

That's the thing, though. I asked because I don't like to assume. As far as being social, there are literally hundreds of social pieces of society that are secular. Family, I can't really speak for. Religious family has never been an issue for me, honestly.

[Willfor]

I was hoping to avoid an :effortpost:, but it seems unlikely at this point.

@Fenrir:

I realize that it is a common tactic, however I do have a bit of history on my side.

I can't give you quote makrs for this one because it's a locked topic but here is a perfect example of how I do a joke post. A couple of short sentences at the very most. I don't tend to invest a lot into it, the mood just strikes me to be a little whacky. I don't highlight that I'm doing it because that ruins it for me.

This is what a serious post from me looks like:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It sounds like Loud Whispers has experience with very small protestant churches in rural or suburban centres. These tend to be very factional and micro-political places where personal interactions, family feuds, and clan lines are often a major part of who wants to be in a church with whom. I can easily see how differences of opinion on decoration could cause a small church split. Though it's not nearly the same in comparison to the CoE. The Church of England has a far more authoritarian structure which allows for a certain amount of control over the amount of splitting that goes on. When the CoE splits it's a chasm on an international scale.

The small protestant churches will often be controlled by very vocal members of the local church more than an outside organizational structure. Pastors of these churches will only have a place as long as they tow the community line, and stay in favour enough to earn their keep. Tensions between these very vocal members of the church (or between vocal members of the church and the pastor) are often cause of splits within small churches. So yes, an argument over the drapes could very well split a small church like that.

It will NOT split the Church of England though, where the power resides more in the hands of people who have often gotten n education in Theology. The metaphorical difference is between two fans arguing about football, and two sports commentators arguing about football. One is going to physically split on far more occasions than the other.



Post-point edit: Both my mother and father are ordained ministers. I'm a little bit biased on this issue because it's been completely resolved within the church I attend since before I was even born, so it's rather difficult for me to comment on the problems facing the Church of England without going "why is this even still an issue...?"

In it, I have taken the time to express myself, be rather reasonable, and at least tried to do my best not to shove my foot in my mouth, which I tend to do far more often than I would like.

Here I made a bad joke. It didn't work, it wasn't really funny, and it has been a rather negative experience for me. If I were a professional comedian, this is the point at which I would make a joke about jumping out of a window. I am basically ashamed of myself.

Okay, now for the more difficult one.

@ MaximumZero:

You're basically asking the worst question.

My answer to this question literally changes on a day to day basis depending on my thought processes for the day. In part of my answer to Fenrir -- the reply to another thread -- yes, both of my parents are ordained ministers. That, however, only affected my introduction to Christianity. Since about the age of fifteen I've had to constantly wrestle with my own personal stance on it because I am constantly intellectually challenged on the issue. So it's been a little over a decade where I've had to ask myself this question every so often and try to come up with a good reason.

So let's hit the key issues:

Afterlife - I honestly would prefer the thought of nothingness over a heaven/hell dichotomy. It has no bearing on my decision. I'm generally more afraid of the pain associated with the actual dying part than I am in what comes after.

Humanity - I believe humans are innately evil, and there is nothing any human will ever be able to do about it. This may sound a bit cynical, but I just take it as a matter of fact. Anyone can be good, of course, and I am still surprised by the depths some people can reach, of course. No amount of religion within a person can change this fact in my mind either.

This Jesus person - Here's where I will come off as dumb, I suppose. Or not dumb, just somewhat illogical. Here's this guy who came about 2,000 or so years ago, and made the assertion that he was the Son of a being that sits outside of our Universe. He loved sarcasm, generally got along with people, basically destroyed a religious establishment, and coined several phrases we use to this day. I'm generally willing to give Him the benefit of the doubt, even if means I have to keep reconciling my own thoughts to His.

I realize this is a bit of chasm to some people. It should be a chasm, in my opinion. It's better as a struggle. Even if I wish sometimes that it wasn't.

[Fenrir]

I would not really concern yourself with it, Willfor, unless you are enjoying the pondering of it (like myself). If God really is all-knowing, all-powerful, and loves everyone, and he does exist, then I do not see why it would be important to attach oneself to any belief about anything. In that case, it sounds like things are well handled, and it does not matter if you are Christian or not, or whether Jesus was real.

Basically, I mean to say that it does not need to be a struggle.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Humans definitely are not innately evil. Ignoring that good and evil are human social constructs in the first place, people have no desire to harm one another naturally. Humans only commit acts of evil if they are pushed to do so by flaws in their environment. The only exceptions are psychopaths, and they literally are incapable of knowing better.