Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ed boy]

Ed boy: the problem is that the police is also giving itself the right to refuse any protest without justification. the fine for breaching the law are just gignormous. Preventing people from striking is an attack on a fundamental right.

But it's not 'without justification'. The police are allowed to refuse when they believe that the protest will compromise public safety and security. That's bloody good justification by my standards.

As for fundamental rights, people also have the fundamental right to protect themselves and their property from harm. This law is just defining that this right may take priority over the right to protest.

That and a gathering of 50 people is not that big in cases of major issues. If the government did something ridiculous and everyone stood up they could just point and say 'sit down' if they want to keep their change. Giving large amounts of control to the government isn't always a good idea. I understand their reasoning, but it's a step too far. People need to be able to protest no matter the circumstance.

If they handled his properly and held conferences with the protesters and heard them out then maybe there wouldn't be so much violence. They shouldn't need to fear their own people. If people are getting so worked up about it maybe they should reroute funds from other projects to reach a better compromise.

It kind of scares people when your tuition fees double over five years, even if it's still cheaper than most.

I would object to the claim that 'people need to be able to protest no matter the circumstance'. Not only because there are counterexamples, but because what most people call protesting is not protesting. The definition of protesting is  to 'Express opposition through action or words'. However, most people interpret that as 'disrupt and obstruct things that you do not disagree with'. By one definition, once you have made your feelings clear, then job's done. By the other, you are actively seeking the detriment of others. That is a lot harder for me to support.

You also say that the protests are a sign that the government is doing the wrong thing, and whenever there are protests it means that the government should seek some compromise. That I disagree with. There are times when protesters need to be told 'no matter how much you moan about this, it's not going to change'. For example, there plenty of people who would happily protest in favour of laws discriminating against people based on race or sexuality. Even if the government does try to seek a compromise, it won't stop the protest. For example, the government increased tuition fees, so students protested againsr the fee rise. If they had raised taxes and kept the fees the same, people would have protested against increased taxes. If they had kept fees low and not raised taxes, they would have to borrow money and have people protesting against their lack of fiscal sustainability. No matter what happens, people are going to protest.

Ed boy, protests are never convenient for the ruling body. That's why they're protests in the first place.

That's one of the qualities of protests, that they're not convenient. Being inconvenient for the ruling body is a byproduct of protesting, not the target. It is not a good thing. It is something that one should want to see reduced, not maximized. If it's your target, the you are not protesting.

[ChairmanPoo]

If you're not inconvenient to the ruling body, the ruling body won't listen to you.

[Hubris Incalculable]

Or else if you're VERY convenient to them

(as in you're offering them lots of money)

Edit: Removed vagrant apostrophe

[Flying Dice]

Ed boy, you don't seem to realize that the right to protest is a cornerstone of democratic society. The police already crack down on protests that turn violent (and plenty that don't); all this does is allow the government to block people from legally protesting because they want to stifle dissent. If you don't see anything wrong with this, I don't really know what else there is to say to you.

[GlyphGryph]

I'm not concerned about the decision resting in the hands of the police, because I would trust them to make a better decision than most people.

I think this is the fundamental disconnect here. This isn't something most people are willing to believe. All evidence says this is very distinctly not true. And in this sort of situation, especially, many police forces here, in America and Canada, and across the world have made it quite clear that they don't think any sort of protesting is justified, if only because it makes their job difficult.

You are, essentially, perfectly okay with giving the government control over the right to protest. That's... not ok.

That's one of the qualities of protests, that they're not convenient. Being inconvenient for the ruling body is a byproduct of protesting, not the target. It is not a good thing. It is something that one should want to see reduced, not maximized. If it's your target, the you are not protesting.

Isn't it the exact opposite? If you're being inconvenient, you aren't protesting, you're just throwing a party.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I don't know about you, but if I'm protesting, I'm already trying to make life difficult for the ruling body. They've obviously fucked up in some capacity, hence why I'm protesting.

It's how we get a message across to elected officials that they have not acted in the interest of their constituents.

[Flying Dice]

I don't know about you, but if I'm protesting, I'm already trying to make life difficult for the ruling body. They've obviously fucked up in some capacity, hence why I'm protesting.

It's how we get a message across to elected officials that they have not acted in the interest of their constituents.

This, exactly. If a protest isn't turning the screws on the government/organization it is targeted at, it is meaningless.

[Sheb]

Also, as a french-speaking activist, I get a lot of infos from Quebec activists, and the news I'm getting is that no new protests is authorized. Anything significant is shut down because of safety threat (because yeah, when you have thousands of angry people marching, you cannot make sure all of them will stay quiet. That "safety" thing is used as an excuse to block protest.

[Zrk2]

Oh Quebec, you so funny.

I'll be paying more than double their average tuition next year, and I'm in the next province over.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I'm paying US tuition. From my perspective the Quebec students are being entitled whiners.

[Sensei]

For C$325 a year for five years, that's, what, C$1625? That's like, two semesters of decent community college over here. From that perspective, I'd say that yes, I think they're probably being entitled whiners, not that I really know how tax graduations are in Quebec. Maybe I can get interested enough in this to convince myself to practicer mon francais and acheter un clavier AZERTY.

[GlyphGryph]

It's a single step in a recent series of fee increases though, and the actual package ends up as significantly more than that. It's the equivalent of your state government deciding tomorrow:

"Well, we've decided everyone who needs to get a drivers license needs to pay us a $4000 dollar fee. To pay for road maintenance and stuff. This only applies to new drivers, of course - anyone who has had a license previously, you're good with that for life."

And sure, I could see people supporting that, or not minding it, but I could fully expect to see people getting pissed off without being entitled whiners.

[lordcooper]

Come to Wales, the government pay you £30 a week to go to college.

[Sheb]

Sensei, that's the fee increase, not the total fee. I'm paying around 800 euros a year for uni, and I don't feel like an entitled whiner. I'm going to be paying that in taxes later on.


EDIT: Apparently the Canadian government (not Quebec's) has been trying to pass an "Omnibus bill" with all kind of dirty things: rise of the retirement age, destruction of a lot of environmental protections, huge change in most area of government (which may not be a bad thing per se but should be discussed in Parliament and not passed in a budget bill. I'm expecting more protests.

[Gantolandon]

destruction of a lot of environmental protections

Serves them right, these lazy plants, doing nothing but sitting, bathing in the sun and expecting to be protected!