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[Mullet Master]

I think the last topic about Introversion was here, talking about the now canceled Subversion. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=26228.0

To me, these were the prototype indie developers in the 'real' internet era. Yeah, there were indie developers before them, but it seems like Introversion was the ones to really it it somewhat big-time with Uplink. Uplink was big enough that it was sold in stores, sold online before that was extremely commonplace, and is now selling again on steam. (I've purchased it several times over the years... most recently on steam). Then they set a while, did another game ... Darwinia- something I didn't really like but it was a commercial success..

And then they made two more games, DEFCON, a slight extension on a minigame already in Uplink, and Multiwinia, a basic rehash of Darwinia.

Then they announced Subversion, an interesting looking game about physical infiltration rather than just computers. But why did they choose to scrap Subversion? Did they ever even seriously work on Subversion?

I already believe Prison Architect (newest announced game) is the just another piece of vaporware, scrapped out after they get bored of marketing for the sake of marketing.

I am wondering - is this the destiny of all "intellectual" indie game developers? Why do you think they are so unproductive? Are they now millionaires and just doing what they want, or are they broke and back to work in other jobs?


 

[nenjin]

Then they announced Subversion, an interesting looking game about physical infiltration rather than just computers. But why did they choose to scrap Subversion? Did they ever even seriously work on Subversion?

Did you even read the other thread? They did plenty of work on Subversion and some it was fucking amazing. The procedural city generator was the genius-level kind of design that blew my mind. Although much of their stuff was in a prototype format, it was looking very promising and like the game was going to be the poster child for emergent gameplay.

The eventually had to scrap it because they dreamed beyond their abilities to code. The demo of the bank level demonstrated that all the systems they wanted to have were going to be incredibly difficult to create in a procedurally generated way, because the demo was almost entirely scripted.

They also stopped and realized that, while they had all these amazing ideas for the game, they'd never actually thought about how it would all work AS a game. So they got cold feet. Not everyone can have the commitment to that kind of depth like Toady One. (Who doesn't have to support a family, spend time with anyone but his cat, basically gets a paycheck for everything he's done up to this point, who has a mad work ethic, ect....)

I already believe Prison Architect (newest announced game) is the just another piece of vaporware, scrapped out after they get bored of marketing for the sake of marketing.

That doesn't look like vaporware to me.

I am wondering - is this the destiny of all "intellectual" indie game developers? Why do you think they are so unproductive? Are they now millionaires and just doing what they want, or are they broke and back to work in other jobs?

Probably somewhere in the middle of your two extremes. If you'd actually read the blogs they had on the Introversion website, they've been very open about their struggles, successes, outright failures and even how they do work. They're one of the most human indie dev teams to me because you can clearly see three smart guys trying to live their dreams, going from feast to famine. After Steam they felt financially secure enough to pursue one of their biggest dreams....and again hit a wall that forced them to change direction. Hearing that Subversion was canceled broke my heart and I think it broke their's too.

People that are trying to do something more than quick and fun are going to have a harder time both articulating and meeting their goals. I agree that when I first saw Prison Architect it felt like they chose something easy and marketable to get them back on their feet. But after looking at the game, it's got Introversion's sensibilities and thoughtfulness written all over it. I like sim/manager games, so why not play one from a dev house I've always respected for the depth and execution of their ideas.

With Kickstarter out there, a decent game selling for them and renewed confidence, you never know. Subversion might find its way back to us. Because Introversion has always kept itself small. Like, bedroom programmers small. And I think that's a big reason why their games hit you differently than a lot of other indie projects.....but also why they struggle to get stuff done sometimes.

I mean seriously....

"I actually think management sims and stories go well together," says Delay, "and we really wanted to have some stories about interesting prisoners to bring people into the game. I mean, prisoners are fascinating characters, and prisons are such a rich area of story."

Anyone that has come down from the upper boards should appreciate the things Introversion does and the way they do them.

[Mullet Master]

Nenjin, thanks for your response. I think you've hit the nail on the head with the decision to cancel the game ...

They also stopped and realized that, while they had all these amazing ideas for the game, they'd never actually thought about how it would all work AS a game. So they got cold feet.

They've said as much on the blog, but it does really make sense when you compare the different life situations of various indie game developers.

I've been following Subversion, the blogs, the website for a long period of time, and have never been truly convinced that Subversion was anything more than a few experimental steps. 

Here is what I base my argument on. Thanks to the wonderful internet, there have been all kinds of people who have documented their development process of various things, in an effort to give something back to the world.
 Here's a link to a procedural city generator somebody made in 50 hours of coding - that's approximately one fulltime workweek for a programmer ... http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3220. If you scroll backwards and forwards in the article, you see how it is designed, and eventually you can download it (as a microsoft windows screensaver). In my opinion, it looks fantastic and "better" than Subversions, but obviously, it's not a game.
Now, if Introversion's city generator took 200-300hours, that's still an awfully little amount of work to be spaced out over the period of 5 years. 

Maybe they weren't able to wrap their heads around Subversion technically - I know it was very lofty in ambition for a small team to work on - but my opinion is that they just weren't seriously working on it rather than hit a technical barrier.

As far as Prison Architect, I hope they do come up with the paid alpha this year. I realize they  "might" have let someone preview the game and that implies that it isn't completely vaporware, but the fact is, the guy from wired that said he played "15 minutes" of it and couldn't even be bothered to take a screenshot of something that was not in the teaser video? It's easy to provide proof that the game exists. Introversion has always posted bits and pieces of their development process, but why the change now? Is it that revolutionary that nobody can see the magical interface? Or do they think that if they release too much insight, a faster studio will gobble up the idea and produce it and ship it long before the fifteenth teaser screenshot is released?

I think that Prison Architect has the capability of being a fantastic game. I think Introversion knows how to create good games, and the polaroid sequence has already depicted that they are going to have some sort of meaningful stories involved. But why are they so damn secretive about it when they've been open about everything else?

[mattie2009]

That doesn't look like vaporware to me.

You cannot comprehend how much want I have for this.

[fenrif]

Didn't they take some of the concepts from Subversion and use them to make Prison Architect? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

[Moogie]

But why are they so damn secretive about it when they've been open about everything else?

Probably spending less time batting around concepts and ideas, and more time actually building the game. It can only be a Good Thing for devs to be quiet about a project. It means nothing has gone wrong, yet.

[cameron]

the issue with subversion wasn't that they had problems generating a city it was that for a believable and interesting infiltration/robbery game they needed to generate full and unique security systems which seemed to have taken to mean working wiring and electronics systems for everything down to the front doors and elevators. I am pretty sure they even got a lot of that stuff working and the actual issue was that it still wasn't that fun.

It'd be great if they can keep going back to it in between other games until they can get something they like

[Aklyon]

Subversion is like a lot of ideas: It sounds awesome, but...how do you make it work they way you want it to?

[nenjin]

But why are they so damn secretive about it when they've been open about everything else?

Because when you're capable of doing something that many people will get excited about, you have to tread careful. Or as Yeats said:

"I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."

Granted Yeats was probably talking about something a little more meaningful, but Subversion is the perfect example of this. They hyped a lot of people up just by talking honestly and deeply about what they were planning and showing off possibilities galore. It led to probably one of the bitterest gaming pills I've swallowed in a while, because Subversion seemed like a game with a totally different approach than the vast majority of what gets made. And it wasn't even a game yet.

Perhaps Introversion felt like they'd spoken too loudly and boldly about Subversion when they should have had their noses to the grindstone making a game. I can only imagine the chagrin Chris must feel at having laid everything out there then eventually having to walk away from it. We tend to think of devs as plucky individuals who cheerfully talk about their successes and failures, but they are people underneath that presentation and nothing can have a bigger impact on a developer's mindset than an outright failure to execute.

I think Introversion felt their star was rising, and when it fell they decided they needed to go back to what had given them success in the past: quietly working on a solid game and letting it surprise the hell out of people when it came out, so gamers and the media go "Can you believe this came out of a team that small?"

I dunno, after Subversion I'm very ok to give Introversion all the space and non-attention they need to do their work. Because I'm a guaranteed buy anyways, just based on the premise of Prison Architect. (Loved me some Prison Tycoon, as limited as it was. Can't wait for it.) I mean, even the name of the dev house hints at what kind of people they are.