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[RoseHeart]

I, very recently, made peace with one of the hosts that personally excluded me from playing their game (one of the few bay12 games I try to play).

That does kick some of coals out of my fire a bit. That isn't to say there isn't still an issue though.

(Probably couldn't have done that, if I threw them under the bus here.)

I am not pushing this discussion, only occasionally reacting to it.
But since were still on it, which is all well and good, the issue is camouflage. A lot of it has been socially engineered to be swept under the rug easier.

Player "applications".

[NUKE9.13]

But since were still on it, which is all well and good, the issue is camouflage. A lot of it has been socially engineered to be swept under the rug easier.

Player "applications".

I was trying to avoid this whole discussion. But... are you seriously saying that player applications are bullying?

[RoseHeart]

I was trying to avoid this whole discussion. But... are you seriously saying that player applications are bullying?

"Bullying Enabling", Yeah!

[NUKE9.13]

Do you understand that sounds completely absurd, or does it strike you as a fairly reasonable line of argument?

[King Zultan]

RoseHeart my man you seem to be trying to find problems where there aren't any.

[IamanElfCollaborator]

I'm gonna be real, this sounds like someone grousing about not getting accepted into games and then painting it as criticism of bullying to give it a veneer of legitimacy. If I'm wrong, feel free to enlighten me, but I'm not about to hurl accusations at my fellow GMs for engaging in discriminatory practices if the one person making that accusation refuses to provide evidence.

Especially when the person making accusations about how ALL games are run on FGRP has literally just admitted they do NOT play very many games on FGRP, which begs the question; if you don't play very many games, how exactly can you come to such a overarching conclusion about games as run on FGRP?

[Maximum Spin]

I'm gonna be real, this sounds like someone grousing about not getting accepted into games and then painting it as criticism of bullying to give it a veneer of legitimacy. If I'm wrong, feel free to enlighten me, but I'm not about to hurl accusations at my fellow GMs for engaging in discriminatory practices if the one person making that accusation refuses to provide evidence.

That's the wild thing - to the best of my knowledge, nobody excludes Roseheart from anything. I've seen him get into games. I've seen him get into games and then back out immediately, too. It does sound like someone grousing about not getting accepted into games, but it's not even coming from anything.

[IamanElfCollaborator]

-snip-

Not entirely true; I can confirm at least that he DID get himself excluded from a FEF over trying to co-opt (read; steal) someone else's application to that game on this very forum, which is what I believe he is partially referring to. However, aside from that, I cannot think of a single game that he HAS gotten himself excluded from, which further begs the question; where are the other examples, and what did he do leading up to those?

[Man of Paper]

Oh man that one response left so much to unpack. Instead of providing evidence of the issue in our community you provided evidence of the issue with yourself.

You know what’s crazy about “player applications”? The fact that they get used in limited-player games so people actually need to put an ounce of effort into claiming the few spots available. They’re there to give a gm an idea of what they’ll be playing with and give them a chance to curate the experience.

Are team sports bullying because there are backup and third string players that want to be first up but aren’t quite at that skill level? Is trying to get a job bullying because you have to submit applications? Do people having preferences for what they want to do mean they’re exclusionary and forming cliques?

The answer to all of that is a solid no.


Your worry about “throwing someone under the bus” is painfully misplaced. I dunno if you think we have rifles ready to blast holes into whoever wronged you, but we don’t. We’re literally just asking for evidence, and you’re making it the most painful, drawn out questioning process outside of a gulag. I don’t know how coming to terms with something would be affected by “throwing someone under the bus” after the fact, either.

Unless you actually prove otherwise, I’m just going to assume you were excluded for no malicious reasons and decided you could use another hill to die on.

Ninja’s: this is even more ridiculous if the exclusion was the direct result of your own actions.

[heydude6]

I believe Rosheart is saying that player applications are a tool that could potentially give a malicious GM “plausible deniability” if they wanted to deliberately exclude certain players.

Perhaps, but player applications provide too many benefits to deliberately throw away for that reason. You only see those on serious games that demand players be actually committed to their games and characters. Many bay12 games expect you to treat them like a joke, so we have to make sure the player is actually capable of switching gears to more serious play before letting them in. Otherwise they can kill the game outright.

[RoseHeart]

Unless a case can be made for disobedience or bad behavior, excluding sign ups for a game should be listed in the forum guidelines under bullying. Bay 12 FG&RP has a festering pro clique, elitist environment. If you want to play with just your friends, you shouldn't post your game on a public forum.

I don't feel this way anymore.

I was venting, and I have not pursued that agenda.

(I would have clarified this earlier, but this was a month ago. I straight up forgot I said that. I've been discussing this through the lens of hypothetical scenarios to illustrate points.)

My own Forum Runner 3 - which I posted 11 days ago - contains examples of:
-selective application hosting
-player banning
-player rejecting

They are just tools, they can and do get misused (I've been a witness) but they are not evil.

I believe Rosheart is saying that player applications are a tool that could potentially give a malicious GM “plausible deniability” if they wanted to deliberately exclude certain players.
Perhaps, but player applications provide too many benefits to deliberately throw away for that reason. You only see those on serious games that demand players be actually committed to their games and characters. Many bay12 games expect you to treat them like a joke, so we have to make sure the player is actually capable of switching gears to more serious play before letting them in. Otherwise they can kill the game outright.

Correct, that is how the tool is misused and used beneficially.

[Man of Paper]

Yeah I think at this point we can just ignore the topic

[IamanElfCollaborator]

Yeah, it does seem like we're being asked to believe an extraordinary claim with no evidence.

[RoseHeart]

I'm gonna be real, this sounds like someone grousing about not getting accepted into games and then painting it as criticism of bullying to give it a veneer of legitimacy.

That's the wild thing - to the best of my knowledge, nobody excludes Roseheart from anything. I've seen him get into games. I've seen him get into games and then back out immediately, too. It does sound like someone grousing about not getting accepted into games, but it's not even coming from anything.

What the heck are you guys implying??


Oh I see, it's secondary definition: to complain.

I see what you mean now, but I'm still not going to make public accusations. Paper is right.

[Man of Paper]

Let’s be real chief.

You’re not being funny. Trying to paint a brush of widespread bigotry and exclusion in our community, then getting called out for it and subsequently proven outright wrong, is not funny. When you’re backed into a corner after people realize you’re full of shit after you actively ignore everything you can’t twist to fit your own view is not the time to try to be the funny guy.

What you have done on multiple occasions now is fabricate problems within our community that do not exist and then try to play the crusader.

You are essentially doing what Elon Musk has been doing regarding Ukraine: making bullshit statements but framing them in a way that disagreeing with you would be taking an objectively bad stance. (For reference, he tweeted a poll about whether or not people should have the right to self-determination after everyone refused to acknowledge Russia’s referendums in Ukraine)

I’d probably not care much to respond again if I didn’t realize your post before the video link entirely admitted you were dealing with hypothetical situations. Which sounds like another way of saying you were bullshitting.

Why am I saying this? Because whether you think so or not, when you do this shit it does actively come off as creating problems to create division for the sake of…nothing. I’m pretty sure you think you’re acting in the community’s best interest, but you really, really need to think about how you go about things. This, again, isn’t the first time you’ve made claims that hold no water under scrutiny, and at some point you will come off as actively malicious and get shitcanned for it.