Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Szkeptik]

It seems that even after just 1-2 dwarves die, at least 4-5 others enter tantrums over it and it's downhill from there.

I think that there should be a change in how negative thoughts are calculated when a military dwarf dies.

There should be a "died a heroic death" thought for everyone who was family or friend of the deceased, which would give almost as much a positive thought as the death itself is negative. This way tantrum spirals would still happen if dwarves died by accident or from clumsiness, but having a stronger enemy kill a few military dwarves wouldn't cause my fortress to break down.

[weenog]

The fortress shouldn't be breaking down from one or two soldier deaths anyway, unless it was already on the verge of collapse.  It sounds like you need to invest more in your whole fort's morale, and work your military harder so they don't die so fast, and don't have so many friends when they do eventually die.

[Jeoshua]

Have you ever had a family member go overseas into war and then die?

I assure you, it's not a "happy thought".

[NW_Kohaku]

Yes, while the whole thing doesn't sound terribly realistic, you should generally strive to keep your whole fort "ecstatic" at all times unless they just happened to have a death.  Legendary dining halls, masterwork meals, high-quality alcohol, etc. all add to the happiness meter and are padding to resist tantrum spirals. 

As for the general idea, the whole Happiness concept is being scrapped in the upcoming Personality Rewrites, so Toady isn't going to do a quick fix until he rewrites the whole system "soonish", anyways.

[kaenneth]

It might not be a happy thing, but a pretty small percentage of killed soldiers family members go on killing sprees because of it.

Rage and Sad need to be separated.

[weenog]

Have you ever had a family member go overseas into war and then die?

I assure you, it's not a "happy thought".

I've lost family.  I've also walked in on friends successfully committing suicide.  In neither case did I completely lose my mind from lack of hope and anything else to live for.  I might have if I was already a fragile wreck of a man, no stranger to despair.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Have you ever had a family member go overseas into war and then die?

I assure you, it's not a "happy thought".

I've lost family.  I've also walked in on friends successfully committing suicide.  In neither case did I completely lose my mind from lack of hope and anything else to live for.  I might have if I was already a fragile wreck of a man, no stranger to despair.

Dwarves are all alcoholics, and well-known for being neither touchy-feelie kinds of people nor good at expressing emotions positively. Besides, how many forts have you had where your dwarves aren't "no stranger to despair?"

[weenog]

You're suggesting that naturally numb people who are further numbing themselves with drink are more likely to cry and rage than just suck it up and deal with it?

[Bohandas]

Have you ever had a family member go overseas into war and then die?

I assure you, it's not a "happy thought".

True, but realistically the response should at least be muted somewhat. Soldiers dying is kind of expected, outside of times of prolonged peace and serenity, death is either part of the job, at least seen by people as being part of it.

I think the joker put it best.

[Szkeptik]

Have you ever had a family member go overseas into war and then die?

I assure you, it's not a "happy thought".

True, but I wasn't talking about the real world. Maybe dwarves have different concepts of death in certain situations, and having someone die for the safety of the fortress invokes great pride in the relatives. Also I didn't say the negative thought wouldn't be there, just that it would be -partly- counteracted by the positive thought.

Can someone point me to a thread about this upcoming Personality rewrite?

[Mr. Palau]

The fortress shouldn't be breaking down from one or two soldier deaths anyway, unless it was already on the verge of collapse.  It sounds like you need to invest more in your whole fort's morale, and work your military harder so they don't die so fast, and don't have so many friends when they do eventually die.

[Dorfimedes]

Bipolar Bunker is a more apt name for the game, I think.

[GreatWyrmGold]

You're suggesting that naturally numb people who are further numbing themselves with drink are more likely to cry and rage than just suck it up and deal with it?

Dwarves aren't naturally numb, they're naturally unstable (if only due to copious alcohol intake). This isn't helped by their cultural tendancies towards a dislike of discussing feelings, leading to said feelings exploding out of them at inoppurtune times, and towards violence.
Also, consider this: A few other people note that a fortress in which a couple dwarves dying leads to an instant, unavoidable, unstoppable tantrum spiral is one that was spiraling into destruction beforehand. It's realistic that concerns like lack of housing, food, or whatever it is that's making your dwarves unhappy would lead to a time of normal function followed by sudden collapse when something bad happens, pushing them over the edge.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 It's a metaphorical version of a phenomenom noted in, probably among other books I haven't had the pleasure of reading, Jared Diamond's Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed. In that book, examples were given, from a mention that Rome wouldn't have fallen when it did if it wasn't suffering from other difficulties; to in-depth discussion of such difficulties that lead to, for instance, the Anasazi of North America and the Greenland Norse colony in, um, Greenland, collapsing once the climate took a foul turn, making agriculture or pastoralism unable to feed the large populations that had grown in times of plenty. There were some other factors--deforestation, for instance--but the important part is that societies that fall tend to do so quickly, and due to one little event pushing the society over the edge. It's not universal, but it does tend to happen.

[weenog]

I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between

Also, consider this: A few other people note that a fortress in which a couple dwarves dying leads to an instant, unavoidable, unstoppable tantrum spiral is one that was spiraling into destruction beforehand.

and

The fortress shouldn't be breaking down from one or two soldier deaths anyway, unless it was already on the verge of collapse.

[King Mir]

I don't agree that tantrum spirals are realistic. Tantrums are, but their should be fewer fatalities from tantrums.