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1: NC

2: NC and TR

3: NC, TR and Vanu

[Jopax]

Or being a really good sneaky and cautious sniper. It would take a while but barring any freak occurences you'd easily be able to rack up kills on silly players who don't learn from their mistakes.

[werty892]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlTTiad_nI8
TB explains Stuff

tl;dr Vanu Cheated in ultimate showdown, but nobody cares cause its all marketing, and more!

[nenjin]

Most of the hacker groups are known to play VS because it's harder to tell due to inherent accuracy of infantry weapons and the maneuverability of the aircraft. I simply cannot believe that anyone who has played for more than 4 hours could possible have a legit k/d of 30+. The probability for that are beyond my ability given all of the variables in the game.

In his first 3 hours, one of my friends went ~30:2, playing as a TR sniper. I think there's lots of ways you can get that kind of K/D as long as you aren't playing a grunt.

[Darkening Kaos]

Here's something of note, which isn't anecdotal evidence for once.

I was on Briggs during that showdown/advertising gimmick.  The only reason (our) Vanu are not on the leaderboard is purely because they spent all that time on Indar and Esamir causing havoc and trying to beat down the 10-15% of TR and NC who also ignored the competition.  I know that for a small band of dedicated NC randoms on Esamir who boarded up Northern Weigh Station, we repulsed the VS time after time.  Every time they succeeded, we reclaimed as quickly as we could.  It was intense and unremitting, but we didn't care, it was damn good fun.

So that leaderboard actually tells you one real thing - on each server, who really cares about competitions?

On Briggs, at least, the Vanu are sneaky underhanded bastards who will shank you in the back the first chance they get.  The TR flood with air destroying everything like a swarm of locusts, (even each other oddly), while the NC seems to have way to many Lone Wolves who won't work with each other except when all the chips are down and there is no choice.

[Fayrik]

You're trying to make an argument. As a part of that argument, you state a blatant lie (which anyone remotely familiar with the game would recognize as such) as fact. I was bemused.

Actually no. I'm not trying to argue anything. If you hadn't noticed, I haven't defended anything I've said. I'm speculating.
And I'd rather not come here to try learn about the problem if people like you are going to start accusing me of doing things that I was not intending to do.

Or, in words you might understand a bit more clearly, "i nut mad brah".

Now if you'll stop insulting me, perhaps I can continue to try and work out what the hell has been going on in this game.

Most of the hacker groups are known to play VS because it's harder to tell due to inherent accuracy of infantry weapons and the maneuverability of the aircraft.

I've had suspicions about this, but frankly, like you say, it's harder to tell, so I'd rather not just throw everything into that "pit of blame".

In his first 3 hours, one of my friends went ~30:2, playing as a TR sniper. I think there's lots of ways you can get that kind of K/D as long as you aren't playing a grunt.

Yeah, you could do that, though I doubt it's nearly as quick or as ridiculously easy as:

(1) Get Station Credits

(2) Beef up your Mosquito/Scythe with rocketpods

(3) Find a large concentration of enemy troops or a sunderer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlTTiad_nI8
TB explains Stuff

tl;dr Vanu Cheated in ultimate showdown, but nobody cares cause its all marketing, and more!

Haha, well. That certainly blew away my idea that this was showing an underlying population imbalance or anything weapon related.

I know that for a small band of dedicated NC randoms on Esamir who boarded up Northern Weigh Station, we repulsed the VS time after time.

But that's the Northern Weigh Station. That place is easy mode for the NC. I've fought the place about 15 times already. 14 as the NC. I can practically cap it solo at this point.
Made an interesting round that one time I was TR.
Still, Vanu owning all the land on Esamir. When's that not happening?

Edit: Just caught my eye as I hit post.

The Vanu are sneaky underhanded bastards who will shank you in the back the first chance they get.  The TR flood with air destroying everything like a swarm of locusts, (even each other oddly), while the NC seems to have way to many Lone Wolves who won't work with each other except when all the chips are down and there is no choice.

I don't really get what you mean with the Vanu... But your point about the NC rings very true. I would put that down to why they seem to be dragging the most of all the factions, but considering they have low populations generally and rank lowest with KD, it would appear there could be a deeper reason for this.
I was playing TR on Woodman during the UES, and boy do I have some memories of that event.

[Flying Dice]

You're trying to make an argument. As a part of that argument, you state a blatant lie (which anyone remotely familiar with the game would recognize as such) as fact. I was bemused.

Actually no. I'm not trying to argue anything. If you hadn't noticed, I haven't defended anything I've said. I'm speculating.
And I'd rather not come here to try learn about the problem if people like you are going to start accusing me of doing things that I was not intending to do.

So basically you're allowed to state obvious falsehoods as if they were facts because you're only speculating. Speculation is a guess based on limited evidence, essentially a hypothesis. Part of that includes accounting for known facts. I'd say that "TR have guns with high RoF." is a pretty basic fact in PS2. So, in short, you were using blatantly false evidence to form your opinion. Same issue with a very slightly different shade of 'wrong'.

This is sort of what I'm talking about, Vanu guns have the highest RoF, and manage to keep a lot of that at distance. Not all of it, but so much more than the other teams.

This is sort of what I'm talking about, Vanu guns have the highest RoF

Vanu guns have the highest RoF

Vanu guns highest RoF

That's about as clear-cut as statements can get.

Or, in words you might understand a bit more clearly, "i nut mad brah".

Now if you'll stop insulting me, perhaps I can continue to try and work out what the hell has been going on in this game.

Ah, yes. You're allowed to take potshots at me (and a rather uninventive one, to boot). The moment I call you on it, that's crossing a line, though. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlTTiad_nI8
TB explains Stuff

tl;dr Vanu Cheated in ultimate showdown, but nobody cares cause its all marketing, and more!

There weren't rules preventing that in place, so it wasn't technically cheating. That said, it's exactly the sort of underhanded shit I'd expect from some of the people I've seen running large groups in VS Mattherson. Though to be honest, it sounds more like SOE screwed the pooch and VS were the ones who were clever/unsportsmanlike enough to take advantage of it.


edit: If you look here, the location for the challenges was leaked on the 23rd. It wasn't only available to VS.

All three challenges take place on Amerish.

[Knight of Fools]

Well, Flying Dice, you've got some ad hominem, and a healthy dose of the fallacy fallacy going there. If you weren't so focused on the mistakes other people were making in their arguments, you'd realize that your arguments contain little to no reason why the VS shouldn't be toned down at medium ranges, where damage drop and bullet drop off isn't a huge factor, but where recoil, RoF, and CoF is.

[Silfurdreki]

This whole discussion is rather interesting, I think, because what we have is basically a microscopic (and more eloquent) version of the debate storm that has been raging on the official forums for over a month.

On one side, we have the NC who believe they're being shafted as far as game balance is concerned, and the TR, who doesn't think that they're being shafted as heavily, but still believes that the VS is overpowered. On the other side, we have VS, who believes that there is balance, and that the game is mostly fine, and that most problems is not faction balance but problems that plague the entire game.

When people present theoretical, hard-evidence facts, such as datamined weapon stats, and argue that VS is OP or VS is fine, the other side says that hard data doesn't have any real relevance in real situations. On the other hand, people present anecdotal evidence, which by nature includes all variables of a real situation, then the other side claims that anecdotal evidence is useless.

I think this is a shame, since factual data does indeed not give the full picture of reality, and a piece of anecdotal evidence is in itself not very relevant but factual data provides the basis for the game reality, and a lot of anecdotal evidence becomes statistics. If people could just stop looking at each piece of evidence by itself and instead try to piece together a coherent picture we would actually make some progress in this discussion instead of constantly going over the same tired arguments.

Now, I'm not going to claim that I'm unbiased in this, I've thought multiple times (mostly while losing badly ingame ) that the NC is shafted in so many ways. It's a very easy conclusion to reach when being frustrated from losing, but not one that is very constructive.

My personal belief is that vanguard/prowler/lightning turrets need to be stabilised so that they can accurately fire on the move, like magriders and that the flinching system for infantry should be reworked since it makes high-RoF weapons far better than others in close combat. Maybe just remove it altogether for hits on the shield and keep it (perhaps with reduced intensity) on health hits or something. After all, the shield is designed to absorb bullet hits, right? Why would you flinch when your magic future forcefield gets shot? Also give the Reaver some actually useful bonus and fix its crosshair. Right now it's only a larger, less manoeuvrable and slightly slower scythe, or a much larger, slower mosquito with slightly higher max afterburner speed. The afterburner acceleration was even nerfed, so that you reach that higher max afterburner speed for a very short time.

[Flying Dice]

That is indeed the main problem with this, is that neither hard data nor anecdotal evidence tell the whole story.

Well, Flying Dice, you've got some ad hominem, and a healthy dose of the fallacy fallacy going there. If you weren't so focused on the mistakes other people were making in their arguments, you'd realize that your arguments contain little to no reason why the VS shouldn't be toned down at medium ranges, where damage drop and bullet drop off isn't a huge factor, but where recoil, RoF, and CoF is.

I suggest you try to understand what terms mean before letting definitions do your arguing for you. It is not an ad hominem attack to point out that someone is either lying or operating under false assumptions, and it is not an ad hominem attack to respond to insults in kind. Neither am I making the second fallacy; I have no disagreement with the statement, "There are balance issues in PS2," but I do take issue with people trying to support a narrow, self-serving strain of that with obviously false evidence. Even if I hardly played the game I would still take issue with that; it's intellectually dishonest. I also see no good reason why VS should be toned down at medium ranges, considering that we also suffer from recoil and do not have the highest-RoF weapons. If you want to argue seriously, you might want to consider doing something beyond saying that VS is OP and accusing people of making fallacious arguments with no real support for your accusations.

Incidentally, let's look at the carbines:
VS Carbine with lowest recoil:  Serpent, 0.22 vert and left recoil, 2.5x first shot multi
TR Carbine with lowest recoil: TRAC-5, 0.3 vert, right recoil, 2.35x first shot multi
NC Carbine with lowest recoil: GD-7F, 0.3 vert, left recoil, 2x first shot multi.

Hardly a stunning advantage, and most VS weapons are closer to the average. The Serpent, incidentally, also has a very long reload time.

The point I've been driving at is that NC seem to be obsessed with the VS, as if we were the reason you have shitty accuracy and high recoil. Your problems are clearly internal, and I think that the leaderboards show that perhaps more than anywhere else, given that they represent total exp earned, and considering that NC are severely under-represented at the top. What that says to me is that the balance issues are either related to NC tech, or to some inherent attitude of NC players, or most likely a combination of both.

tl;dr: Just because you're in a pile of shit doesn't mean you need to drag everyone down into it with you. There are quite a few serious problems with balance, but the only one that is purely related to factional ability is that NC has neither the RoF nor the accuracy advantage.

[Jelle]

And the flashy outfit with vibrant easy to spot colors. Don't forget the flashy outfit.

[sluissa]

Just got done playing a nice long session as NC... got my ass kicked, but that could have been due to the fact that I was on Indar and we had around 17-20% pop the whole time and the other two factions both had at least double our pop there. (Although it was roughly 50/50 TR/NC on Amerish and seemed to be a bit more equally three way on Esamir.)

Now, I noticed I was still getting my ass kicked by TR in a face to face battle. But VS I felt more or less matched with, although they seemed to be doing a lot of team work so more often than not i never ran into just a single VS soldier. Now, this is just from a few hours of play and under less than ideal circumstance. Still, at no point did I ever feel. "Well, this is unfair. I'll just quit." And ONLY ONCE did I actually get mosquito rocket spammed despite a ton of air flying around... but this was by a skilled group that was attacking a deployed sunderer we were all huddled around trying desperately to defend. We actually destroyed one mosquito and came close to a second one. And I survived several rocket attacks even without any cover, but finally succumbed as they mopped up the leftover infantry after the sunderer blew.

Overall, I had fun. I ended up in a fun squad with a definite touch of "Them Duke boys" to it.

[miauw62]

Note to self, the infantry paths are not meant for tanks.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I remember something like that in beta. I was running over Esamir towards a lonely base (I refer to the time as the Great Domination of Esamir by the NC in the Auraxium Era) and I saw a guy in a tank in one of the ridges, he was stuck. I basically spent 20 minutes talking with him, trying to push him away and having a great time.

[Jopax]

I got stuck in my Magrider the other day, between a building and a rock, couldn't exit the tank and could back up either. Fucking annoying having to redeploy and lose the tank :C

Also, have 100 Certs on my NC char now, so tempted to upgrade something but I think I'll stick to getting the C4 for now

[miauw62]

I kinda need to play this game again. I could team up with you if you're on Mattherson.

And I hope that the game will be tweaked to have quite some balance eventually.

About the vanu "cheating", I guess you could call it cheating. What you call it doesn't really matter, but it's a dick move anyway, and a... Well, a giant-ass fuckup on the devs/whoever organized the events side.

[Toaster]

The NC Mattherson outfit has been pretty empty lately.  It could use some more love.