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1: NC

2: NC and TR

3: NC, TR and Vanu

[Spaghetti7]

I'm TR on Ceres.

[Jopax]

I have an NC on Cobalt and a VS on Lithcorp. Thinking about rolling TR on Miller most probably (can't have different empire chars on the same servers right?).

Also getting the hang of flying, managed to fly a Libbie with gunners, get a kill or two, get shot at, run like a sissy, land without dying (!!!!) repair, go at it again and finally get shot down by copious AA and rocket fire. All without managing to land a single freaking hit with the main gun (my gunners ditched me), seriously, I think there should be a bit flexibility with the main gun, the craft is so unwieldy that it's almost impossible to properly aim it at any safeish range.

Also, what's better for the Libbie, Bombardment or High-G chassis? They both seem to improve useful stats, tho agility is a bit vague as to what exactly is improved.

[Jelle]

Alright so I'm mostly ditching my bird as far as certs go. It's fairly well certed as is and I don't see the point in spending any more the direction balance is going. Armor is the go to vehicle now (I'm already more effective on my lightning then on my reaver as is) so that's what I'll do.
Only I'm not sure what to cert up, my lightning has some decent upgrades, maybe I should improve my sunderer. Anyone have any experience with the bulldog nade launcher? I have the fury on my flash so I know how that handles, from what I gather the bulldog has less damage but more range. It's fairly cheap to, is it any good?
I think I'll cert up my sunderer to act as an improvised battle station, be able to fend off tanks if all guns are manned. Maybe even fend of lightnings on my own, think I can do that with bulldogs?

Also getting the hang of flying, managed to fly a Libbie with gunners, get a kill or two, get shot at, run like a sissy, land without dying (!!!!) repair, go at it again and finally get shot down by copious AA and rocket fire. All without managing to land a single freaking hit with the main gun (my gunners ditched me), seriously, I think there should be a bit flexibility with the main gun, the craft is so unwieldy that it's almost impossible to properly aim it at any safeish range.

I wouldn't rely overly much on the nose gun. It good enough against other libs and stationary tanks if you get the tank buster (get the tank buster it's cheap). Leave ESF to the tail gunner, or if you're a really good lib pilot manage to tilt your craft so your secondary gunner can put a dalton/zephyr in the soon to be smoking wreckage of an ESF.

I'm NC cobalt, name Meliorist. Should be on the B12 player list somewhere.

[sluissa]

To be completely fair... I'm going to take my "walk a mile in everyone's shoes" statement further. I'll go ahead and roll up a TR and... as much as it pains me... an NC character over the next few days and play around a bit with them and their weapons. I probably won't fly much, as I feel like the air game is more or less balanced... when you're talking air to air at least and most of the aircraft are general use anyway. (Although I know some people complain they overnerfed the NC fighter in beta.)

I did play quite a bit of TR during the beta. I've honestly got nothing against their background or play style, I just slightly preferred the move to a techno-religious cult rather than a stagnant despotism. Also pew pew.

I have NEVER played NC on PS2... a little bit on PS1, but I never preferred them. So this will be a completely blank slate(excepting the general use stuff everyone uses) I've always disliked their background and I'm not all that much on the "Bigger boom" style of warfare.

If the argument is still going on, I might weigh in after I'm done, not that I expect it to change anyone's mind, nor necessarily should it. Even if I broaden my personal experiences I still have my own personal biases. Still, I hope to see things a bit better from the other side.

[Flying Dice]

I have an NC on Cobalt and a VS on Lithcorp. Thinking about rolling TR on Miller most probably (can't have different empire chars on the same servers right?).

I'm fairly certain that you can. I have both VS and NC characters on Mattherson.

[miauw62]

I have an NC on Cobalt and a VS on Lithcorp. Thinking about rolling TR on Miller most probably (can't have different empire chars on the same servers right?).

You actually can now, wich is really nice.

[Silfurdreki]

I'm honestly not entirely sure why that is. The lack of bullet drop doesn't matter for most infantry classes, given the distances involved for TR or NC to need to adjust a noticeable amount. Again, speaking as someone who plays both VS and NC: Yes, VS are a bit more accurate? Does that equate to autoheadshotting with a carbine from 200 meters? HELL NO. There's also the aspect that people always seem to conveniently forget: VS rounds have damage dropoff at range. We're a bit more likely to hit, but our shots do piddly damage at long range. As for CQC, I honestly can't think of a single time I've won a straight-up fight (no surprises or trickery involved, no prior damage, no big difference like LA v. HA) with a TR, nothing involved but our guns. NC usually comes down to whether or not they flip out and go full auto.

While it's true that VS have damage dropoff at range, it's worth pointing out that so does everyone else. In fact, VS damage dropoff is less steep than the other factions' but has a slightly lower minimum value. Just look at the spreadsheet Mini linked above:

Let's take the carbines as an example. All carbines do maximum damage (200, 167 or 143) out to 10 metres and then the damage starts do go down. TR carbines reach minimum damage (112) at 65 metres, and NC carbines reach minimum damage (143, 125 or 112) at 65, 75 or 85 metres depending on the gun. VS carbines, however, reach their minimum damage (112 or 100) at 115 metres.

In other words, there's a  ~50 meter range (between 65-75 and 115 metres) where VS carbines always do more damage than other carbines, with the exception of the NC long range carbine where the range is 85-100 metres. The same applies for AR's and LMG's, even the ranges in many cases.

The minimum damage difference between VS and TR guns is also only 12 damage, or roughly 1% of an infantryman's health. I'd hardly call the VS damage "piddly", especially considering they do more damage in a certain range. NC can get up to 143 minimum damage with the specialised long-range carbine, but usually has 125 damage minimum (or 112 with one carbine) but that's still only 2.5% of an infantryman's health.

The VS battle rifle has a longer effective range (125m, rather than 90m); it also does substantially less damage than NC or TR at that range (167 at max range vs. 200 for the others) and does equal damage at everything before that extra chunk of range. The same is true for most of the other weapons. VS has a slightly longer arm, but the extra range doesn't matter very much when a) you're going to have difficulty hitting targets with anything but a sniper rifle, even firing single shots, at more than 100 meters out, even discounting lag, low FPS, and rendering bugs; and b) when you do hit, you're going to be doing very little damage, relatively speaking.

Unless you're seriously suggesting that all VS players can fire off four or five headshots in a row at 125m, with perfect accuracy, on a sprinting target, without aimbots. If that's what you're suggesting, I kindly suggest you get some station cash and purchase yourself a reality check. The extra range with further reduced damage is a harassment tool. You might occasionally manage to pick up an assist, and a dozen people all firing long range shots at the same target (who is also in a wide open space with no cover and not moving very fast) might get a kill, but that's about it. And that's coming from a main-line Vanu player, I should bloody well know what I'm talking about. If I could pick off targets easily with no fear of repercussions I wouldn't be discussing it here, I would be in-game scooping up all that tasty effortless exp. 

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're trying to say here. I'm not saying that the VS extra range is some huge advantage, I'm just saying that it's a bit unfair to tote damage dropoff at range as unique VS disadvantage, simply because all empires suffer from it. Almost equally much, even, unless you think that 1-2% less minimum damage (at larger range) is a very large disadvantage.

[Werdna]

Personally, I think Air is in a good place right now.  At least on Soltech, when I watch air carefully lately it seems like there are plenty of A2A fighters up there hunting the A2G's.  A few patches ago, it was nearly 100% A2G and it was a rocket inferno on the ground.  As long as they can keep the air game balanced where there is as much incentive to go A2A as there is A2G, I'll be happy. 

[Fayrik]

If your case for VS being OP is so strong, why are lies necessary?

Oooh. Shit just got personal. Have we hit a nerve?

No. They don't. Top 4 all have the same RoF, 2/4 are TR. 5 in the top ten (which also happens to be the next cutoff for weapons with equal RoF) are TR, 3 are VS. Next cutoff is at 19, and TR have 12, while VS has 6. Yes, they have a higher RoF than NC weapons in general, but NC have a consistently higher damage/bullet.

Well, while this addresses the point that the TR do indeed have a higher base Rate of Fire, their recoil requires a lot more compensation, meaning less shots will hit at a distance.
On the other hand, I have seen VS guns get kills from a distance without even needing to pause. That kind of fire just isn't possible on the other two factions.
That was what I was trying to get at when I said:

This is sort of what I'm talking about, Vanu guns have the highest RoF, and manage to keep a lot of that at distance. Not all of it, but so much more than the other teams.

And:

Well, that's Light Assault, the carbines are designed for CQC. The... Solstice I believe it is for Vanu, however, somehow manages to remain competitive at ranges the TR and NC carbines could only dream of.

And, I don't even have that much of a problem with that.
It's this sort of thing that annoys me.
All I've been trying to do here is work out what could cause this kind of result.
And the only forecast this kind of statistic brings to the table is resistance is futile.

...Which, if I have to remind you VS fanboys out there, means fun for no one, 'cause all your competition just stopped competing.

[Twiggie]

sweet jesus, just had the best life i've ever had

spawn as infiltrator, run to my front lines. reach the front of the front lines, headshot two guys with my sniper rifle (who see me and are firing at me, at about 20m), cloak, run forward as far as I can, cloak wears off, nobody pays attention to me.

i reach the enemy ridge and get over a dozen kills, where people are just bloody standing still waiting for me to headshot them because they're all firing at my buddies over the way.

after clearing the entire ridge i run back towards their sundy to try and get some more. sadly i got spotted by a heavy and died. :<

[Silent_Thunder]

Note to self, the infantry paths are not meant for tanks.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Flying Dice]

If your case for VS being OP is so strong, why are lies necessary?

Oooh. Shit just got personal. Have we hit a nerve?

You're trying to make an argument. As a part of that argument, you state a blatant lie (which anyone remotely familiar with the game would recognize as such) as fact. I was bemused. Or, in words you might understand a bit more clearly, "i nut mad brah".

No. They don't. Top 4 all have the same RoF, 2/4 are TR. 5 in the top ten (which also happens to be the next cutoff for weapons with equal RoF) are TR, 3 are VS. Next cutoff is at 19, and TR have 12, while VS has 6. Yes, they have a higher RoF than NC weapons in general, but NC have a consistently higher damage/bullet.

Well, while this addresses the point that the TR do indeed have a higher base Rate of Fire, their recoil requires a lot more compensation, meaning less shots will hit at a distance.
On the other hand, I have seen VS guns get kills from a distance without even needing to pause. That kind of fire just isn't possible on the other two factions.
That was what I was trying to get at when I said:

This is sort of what I'm talking about, Vanu guns have the highest RoF, and manage to keep a lot of that at distance. Not all of it, but so much more than the other teams.

And:

Well, that's Light Assault, the carbines are designed for CQC. The... Solstice I believe it is for Vanu, however, somehow manages to remain competitive at ranges the TR and NC carbines could only dream of.

And, I don't even have that much of a problem with that.
It's this sort of thing that annoys me.
All I've been trying to do here is work out what could cause this kind of result.
And the only forecast this kind of statistic brings to the table is resistance is futile.

...Which, if I have to remind you VS fanboys out there, means fun for no one, 'cause all your competition just stopped competing.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. Because we disagree with you, we're fanboys. And you weren't lying, you were just creatively interpreting the truth.

Here's something of note, which isn't anecdotal evidence for once.

Taking a look at the leaderboards, of the top 100 players: 35 are TR, 41 are VS, 24 are NC. That's solely in terms of exp, by the by. There's a small deal of variation there between VS and TR, but again, exp-based. If we look at k/d ratios, things get a bit more interesting. Among those top 100, the tops k/ds are thus:

1: 51.26
2: 41.42
3: 22.24
4: 16.18
5: 15.47
6: 13.64
7: 10.31
8: 9.78
9: 9.54
10: 8.93
11: 8.21

And so forth. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you've been whining about the wrong thing, that maybe the problem isn't that VS is OP, but that NC is UP? TR and VS are balanced versus each other, and it's neither our fault nor the Terrans' fault that the NC got the shit end of the stick. How about instead of crying for us to be pulled down to your level, you ask to be brought up to ours? Assuming, of course, that there actually is anything to this beyond the traditional, "I don't want to admit that I'm not the BEST EVAR at this game!" element that tends to go hand in glove with whining about balance as far as FPS games are concerned.

And now, for something that isn't a massive headache.

Note to self, the infantry paths are not meant for tanks.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Story of my life, every single time. That's eve worse than when you try to take a slope that's just a little too steep and have to watch in futile frustration as you slide all the way back down. 

[hemmingjay]

Most of the hacker groups are known to play VS because it's harder to tell due to inherent accuracy of infantry weapons and the maneuverability of the aircraft. I simply cannot believe that anyone who has played for more than 4 hours could possible have a legit k/d of 30+. The probability for that are beyond my ability given all of the variables in the game.

[Twiggie]

i dont know what all you guys are talking about, but i just killed a lib with a vanguard.

it was fun.

this game is fun.

[GreatJustice]

Most of the hacker groups are known to play VS because it's harder to tell due to inherent accuracy of infantry weapons and the maneuverability of the aircraft. I simply cannot believe that anyone who has played for more than 4 hours could possible have a legit k/d of 30+. The probability for that are beyond my ability given all of the variables in the game.

(1) Get Station Credits

(2) Beef up your Mosquito/Scythe with rocketpods

(3) Find a large concentration of enemy armor

Would take some good flying and caution, but I can see it being possible.