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1: NC

2: NC and TR

3: NC, TR and Vanu

[Flying Dice]

Mind the "if it hits". It's hard as fuck to hit an ESF with a dumbfire rocket. Sure, they'll have to fly around again, but as long as they aren't dead, they'll just fly around for 5 seconds and return.

It's only hard to hit a DECENT ESF pilot with dumbfire. I've managed to get about 3 that just sat there and watched the rocket smash into their cockpit. There is no minimum intelligence for you to use rocket pods.

This, so much. I can't count the number of times I've seen ESFs (particularly mossies, for some reason) charge straight down my gullet, even when I'm a burstermax. As in, they'll rush in and hover maybe 10 meters away.

[Fayrik]

So, when a facility of blues get put up against three liberators and five ESFs (All eight aircraft supporting rockets), what are we supposed to do to counter this threat? 

[kaian-a-coel]

If I understood well, exactly what you're doing normally. Because it works sooooo well...

[Thexor]

Grab a couple of A2A ESFs, laugh as the poor suckers with A2G rockets get torn apart, then hammer the Libs into submission with missiles? 


The biggest weakness of A2G ESFs is that they're usually laughably easy to kill if you hop in an A2A ESF. Rockets are useless; that shotgun weapon is only mildly useful if you get in close; and the Hover Stability package prevents you from escaping or evading a proper dogfighter. Conversely, any A2A ESFs are pretty useless against foes on the ground.

The only possible sticking point is if there's an organized group of A2A + A2G ESFs attacking your facility. In which case, surprise surprise, you need an organized group of your own to repel them. Because, above all else, teamwork is OP.

[sluissa]

What do you mean by a "facility"? Even numbers? Let's say 2-3 in each lib, 1 in each fighter. that's 11-14 players you're playing against.

I'm not sure what you mean by the liberators having rockets? I assume you mean one of the larger main guns.

Let's just go with 12 players for a nice even number.

Assume you have 12 as well, or else it's not an even fight and no wonder you're getting your ass kicked. 5 of them have upgraded ESFs, let's go ahead and assume 5 of your guys do too.

They should get into their own ESFs, along with anyone else that's even half way decent in a dog fight. Let's give you one more ESF pilot for each lib. That's even numbers of aircraft in the air.

Now you still have another 4 guys on the ground. These can go HA, or man turrets, pull skyguard, man normal vehicle turrets, or also grab ESFs.

More than 16 aircraft in the air around a facility is just asking for trouble and even 16 might be a bit much, but for now we'll leave it at that. Even numbers of aircraft in the air. But now the enemy is at a disadvantage. The liberators will be little help in the air fighting against the fighters, but if they continue to try to attack the ground forces, they'll be quickly overwhelmed as the 8v5 fights out giving the 8 side the win, all things being equal, leaving them to mop up the 3 liberators at their leisure.

If at any time you lose a fighter and it cant be replaced quickly by that same pilot, you've got 4 fresh, no cooldown pilots on the ground. They may be the worst pilots of the group, but they could still help out mopping up or simply chasing the enemy out of range. (Or hell, spawn the fighter and give it to one of the better pilots).

Now, the problem with this entire argument is that no battle situation will ever be that clean cut. Even if you could guarantee those numbers, exactly with no reinforcements for either side, you're still going to have differences in skill which will matter. This entire argument and your own whining depend on "all else being equal" when in fact, all else is never equal in battle.

tl;dr: Stop whining, sometimes you get stuck in bad situations. Fight as best you can or leave.

[Graknorke]

I already left.
But I'm thinking about reinstalling to see if I might get any better. (probably not)

[sluissa]

I didn't mean leave the game, I meant leave that particular location. Find another facility where you will do more good. Find another continent to fight on.

[Graknorke]

I didn't mean that it was your fault or anything.
I quit playing about a month ago because I was too bad at the game to squeeze any enjoyment out of it. Losing is only fun if you actually have anything to lose. Otherwise you're just wasting time.

[Fayrik]

Grab a couple of A2A ESFs, laugh as the poor suckers with A2G rockets get torn apart, then hammer the Libs into submission with missiles? 

And for someone who doesn't have station cash?

tl;dr: Stop whining, sometimes you get stuck in bad situations. Fight as best you can or leave.

Your entire post is fairly spot on but to cut to the chase.
I left. I had to leave.
That's why I'm complaining. We were probably a little outnumbered, but the fact is that while they were performing their cycling attacks, there was nothing I could do. I didn't want to suddenly win, but, it would have been just a little nice to be able to hit something back.

I already left.
But I'm thinking about reinstalling to see if I might get any better. (probably not)

The entirety of my outfit appears to have done that. Now that I'm stuck on my own, I'm frankly beginning to see why they did it.

Basically, I feel like I'm stuck in a pretty bad situation in game. I can play (not brilliantly but) fairly well, but I'm regularly coming up against people with flat out stronger weapons. I'm barely hanging on to being able to play at the very bottom of a platoon. Not for any lack of skill, but simply how heavily out gunned I seem to be in every situation.
It's feeling less and less competitive every time I log on.

Also, is it me or are the Vanu just outmatching everyone? The whole Ultimate Empire Showdown thing scared me a little at just how many servers the Vanu landed all three objectives.

Edit: I was sceptical about the idea of player invulnerability coming out of Sunderers, as that could be a bit over the top when a tank of soldier is trying to destroy it. Suddenly it makes a whole bunch of sense, as I just spawned in and immediately died as the Sunderer was getting attacked by an A2G ESF...Can't help the problem could be fixed more productively though.

[Flying Dice]

So, in summary:

Air OP, nerf please!

Vanu OP, nerf please!

I can't get lots of kills because everyone else has a better gun than I do.

[Knight of Fools]

Okay, thanks for the Strawman, Flying Dice. When you actually read what I wrote and make an intelligent reply, we might be able to have a real conversation.


As for taking cover from an aircraft, cover is essentially useless when you've got a fair number of rockets you can spam just about anywhere, since you can just spin around and negate any cover that the infantry have with both your splash damage and incredible maneuverability.

Air is just too hard for ground forces to counter. If you want Air to counter Air, go play a flight simulator. I'm in the business of having fun, not giving up an entire territory just because some fighters and a lib came out and it's "dumb to try and fight them". Why should my G2A weapons be demeaned to the point of being something just meant to scare pilots away when pilots have the ability to instantly blow me to bits almost instantly? Certs and resources don't have anything to do with it. I throw hundreds of resources into a single life as infantry without getting a single kill, and I've spent thousands of certs on it. So, why aren't I impossible to kill, since I'm on par with aircraft as far as certs and resources go? There's no excuse for aircraft to be as powerful as they are.

I don't have a problem with aircraft because they're powerful. I have a problem with them because they're not fun to fight. Tickle yourself with power fancies all you want while you're in that Lib or Fighter: The reality is that you're winning with a crutch.

[Dermonster]

But I can't seem to kill anything in a scythe, and I only want to use a liberator when I'm not the flyer, which is completely stupidly rare.

[Fayrik]

Nerf is such a horrible word in this situation, it has no real meaning as there are any number of ways you could attempt to fix the situation.

Air OP, nerf please!

I wouldn't say Air is OP at all. Quite the opposite. For a fun and balanced game all I think they need to do is a draw a definition between anti-infantry rockets and anti-tank ones. If you can kill a Sunderer and the 15-24 people that just spawned around it in one run, then you're going to rack up a LOT of exp. A lot more than anyone else is that's for sure.

On the other hand, if you want it more realistic then simply make all the aircraft paper thin and the AA guns more accurate, but whatever, it's a sci-fi game, I doubt they're looking for that.

Vanu OP, nerf please!

Everyone who isn't playing Vanu at this point seems to be saying it. Up until recently I haven't because I thought it was due to the ridiculous Vanu overpopulation on most servers. Now I suspect there could just be a link between the two. A lot of statistics appear to be pointing that way.

I can't get lots of kills because everyone else has a better gun than I do.

Well, I guess I should have seen it coming from a pay2win game, but then maybe that's my own fault for trying to believe that it wouldn't become pay2win.
After all, they did market these guns as side-grades, and having no major advantage over the originals.

But I can't seem to kill anything in a scythe, and I only want to use a liberator when I'm not the flyer, which is completely stupidly rare.

You are using any of the paid weapon upgrades, right? Both (all three) ESFs and Liberators are stupidly weak with the vanilla guns and you ain't gunna kill nothing with 'em.

[Flying Dice]

Okay, thanks for the Strawman, Flying Dice. When you actually read what I wrote and make an intelligent reply, we might be able to have a real conversation.

Maybe next time don't fly off the handle when I'm not even talking to you?

That aside, those three points do tend to sum up the majority of the balance discussion regarding PS2. Echoing them, even with greater detail, is in no way conducive to fixing the balance. I'm in total agreement that there are serious issues, but they aren't the sort that can or should be solved by weakening whatever the mob happens to hate at the moment.

More to the point, how often do you play an ESF? Because I see it from both sides all the time. The only time ESFs have the freedom to mow down infantry like you're describing is when the ESF's empire already practically owns the gorram territory. I also play quite a lot of Burstermax, and it's hardly difficult to completely shut down enemy ESF ops in a small base all by yourself. Libs are a problem, and a big one. ESFs? If you're really dying to them constantly, might I recommend not dancing around in the open far from any base or cover? Or perhaps not being surprised when you get killed while running around in enemy-held territory?

All the whining about being killed in the open between bases has an incredibly simple solution: PULL A GORRAM FLASH.

That aside, I highly doubt you spend "hundreds" of resources on a life as infantry. A Max is 90. A grenade + C4 is something around 115. I don't see any point in dignifying you with any response beyond my own experiences and opinions, as you seem to content to spout a sightly more refined form of, "OMG AIR KILL ME Y I NO KILL AIR". Pull a Burstermax. If you've got thousands of certs invested, maybe think about putting some of them into Skyguard? Remember that schooner example earlier? It's attitudes like yours that result in the crew pulling a hard turn across the wind for no good reason. I don't find AA to be frustrating, and I don't find A2G or A2A to be either "empowering" or boring. I sincerely doubt you spend any real amount of time in a cockpit, given both your fairly evident lack of understanding of the thought process involved, the threat presented by AA, and your disdain for the practice. You want me to keep my flight sim out of your FPS? How about you keep your CoD out of my MMOFPS? 

NOTICE: THAT LAST LINE WAS SARCASM, IF YOU DIDN'T CATCH IT. TAKING IT SERIOUSLY MAY BE HAZARDOUS FOR MY MENTAL HEALTH.

Nerf is such a horrible word in this situation, it has no real meaning as there are any number of ways you could attempt to fix the situation.

Air OP, nerf please!

I wouldn't say Air is OP at all. Quite the opposite. For a fun and balanced game all I think they need to do is a draw a definition between anti-infantry rockets and anti-tank ones. If you can kill a Sunderer and the 15-24 people that just spawned around it in one run, then you're going to rack up a LOT of exp. A lot more than anyone else is that's for sure.

On the other hand, if you want it more realistic then simply make all the aircraft paper thin and the AA guns more accurate, but whatever, it's a sci-fi game, I doubt they're looking for that.

I spend somewhere around 1/3 of my time in the cockpit of my Scythe. I think I can speak fairly accurately from experience when I say that ESFs are balanced. The only time I can safely line up a perfect attack run is when I'm going after a lone non-Skyguard vehicle or non-AA infantry. If I get anywhere near a base or a field battle without flying at the top of the skybox or a few meters off the ground, I get ripped up by flak fire, even when I'm flying low, evasively, on full afterburner. I typically have a ratio of ~2 minutes of running away and repairing to every hasty rocket volley.

Libs hovering in the top of the sky, untouched by everything but enemy ESFs? That's a problem. But when you've got half a dozen ESFs attacking eight infantry and winning, that's not a problem, that's how things bloody well should work. Even then, if the infantry pull burstermaxes, the ESFs are going to be forced to bug out if they aren't dead before they realize what happened.

Vanu OP, nerf please!

Everyone who isn't playing Vanu at this point seems to be saying it. Up until recently I haven't because I thought it was due to the ridiculous Vanu overpopulation on most servers. Now I suspect there could just be a link between the two. A lot of statistics appear to be pointing that way.

I'm honestly not entirely sure why that is. The lack of bullet drop doesn't matter for most infantry classes, given the distances involved for TR or NC to need to adjust a noticeable amount. Again, speaking as someone who plays both VS and NC: Yes, VS are a bit more accurate? Does that equate to autoheadshotting with a carbine from 200 meters? HELL NO. There's also the aspect that people always seem to conveniently forget: VS rounds have damage dropoff at range. We're a bit more likely to hit, but our shots do piddly damage at long range. As for CQC, I honestly can't think of a single time I've won a straight-up fight (no surprises or trickery involved, no prior damage, no big difference like LA v. HA) with a TR, nothing involved but our guns. NC usually comes down to whether or not they flip out and go full auto.

I can't get lots of kills because everyone else has a better gun than I do.

Well, I guess I should have seen it coming from a pay2win game, but then maybe that's my own fault for trying to believe that it wouldn't become pay2win.
After all, they did market these guns as side-grades, and having no major advantage over the originals.

Some of the guns are upgrades, I'll give you that. The NS-11a comes to mind. Also note, though, that a number of the default guns are quite popular, and for good reason. For VS, several that come to mind are the Orion and the variant of the LA default carbine that has the underslung grenade launcher. Most of the guns are sidegrades, and the ones that aren't aren't a big enough difference to be a gamewinner. I've played a whole gorram lot of FPS matches in my time, and I have absolutely no hesitation in saying that skill is far more important than what gun you have. If the weapon was all that mattered, no CounterStrike player would ever be able to kill an enemy with a Glock.

This is the main reason why I hate all the whining about P2W: People aren't directing it at the right gorram things. Get mad about the bloody vehicle weapons! The fucking rocketpods, A2A missiles, the Lib cannons, the Lightning HE! A piddly little difference in your gun is nothing, a 1000cert weapon that turns an ESF from flying scrap into a moderately useful weapon is quite a lot.

[Fayrik]

<Ignoring the massive section not directly relating to me as I'll never be finished otherwise>

I spend somewhere around 1/3 of my time in the cockpit of my Scythe. I think I can speak fairly accurately from experience when I say that ESFs are balanced. The only time I can safely line up a perfect attack run is when I'm going after a lone non-Skyguard vehicle or non-AA infantry. If I get anywhere near a base or a field battle without flying at the top of the skybox or a few meters off the ground, I get ripped up by flak fire, even when I'm flying low, evasively, on full afterburner. I typically have a ratio of ~2 minutes of running away and repairing to every hasty rocket volley.

While you do indeed speak accurately of your experience, that's not exactly what's happening across the board. You're right that you can scare Scythes off for a short while, or even bring the more foolish pilots down altogether, but that's when you're actually in a position to use anti-air weapons.
Scrap that. All of it. The last sentence just sunk in.

I typically have a ratio of ~2 minutes of running away and repairing to every hasty rocket volley.

Okay, lets just put this into perspective of the entire battlefield. No "This is what it's like from the air" no "this is what it's like from the ground."
~2 minutes to repair.
This means ~3 minutes between rocket volleys.
That's actually faster than a MAX's respawn time. It's also shorter than the time it takes to repair a phalanx turret.
If an ESF comes in and destroys something - practically anything - by the time they've gone off, rearmed and repaired, and then come back, the team they've attacked previously still hasn't had time to recover from that.
This effectively means, as an ESF, you're able to come back time and time again with full ammo and armour and just drop an enemy's defences and watch them slowly burn.
Of course it's going to be difficult if you're heavily outnumbered, or against a well organized enemy, but I'm pretty sure that's just regurgitating what's already been said to me so far.
And honestly, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if you've managed to kill three or more people at once with a single rocket and not even noticed. The game isn't too clear on calling kill/death when there's a lot of activity about.

Libs hovering in the top of the sky, untouched by everything but enemy ESFs? That's a problem. But when you've got half a dozen ESFs attacking eight infantry and winning, that's not a problem, that's how things bloody well should work. Even then, if the infantry pull burstermaxes, the ESFs are going to be forced to bug out if they aren't dead before they realize what happened.

This, in comparison, is hardly a problem, as anyone can get out there with an ESF and take it down. I'm not a fan of high altitude liberator rocket bombings either, but frankly I see it happening a lot less and a lot less effectively. I'm also fairly sure that once taken down, they won't be back in 5 minutes either.

I'm honestly not entirely sure why that is. The lack of bullet drop doesn't matter for most infantry classes, given the distances involved for TR or NC to need to adjust a noticeable amount. Again, speaking as someone who plays both VS and NC: Yes, VS are a bit more accurate? Does that equate to autoheadshotting with a carbine from 200 meters? HELL NO. There's also the aspect that people always seem to conveniently forget: VS rounds have damage dropoff at range. We're a bit more likely to hit, but our shots do piddly damage at long range. As for CQC, I honestly can't think of a single time I've won a straight-up fight (no surprises or trickery involved, no prior damage, no big difference like LA v. HA) with a TR, nothing involved but our guns. NC usually comes down to whether or not they flip out and go full auto.

Initially I thought there was some sort of rock < paper < scissors going on here with NC < VS < TR, however that theory has since died at the hands of the VS.
You make some fairly good counter points, indeed the VS guns do lose damage over distance. Vice versa however, they seem to increase damage in close range. With a rapid fire weapon like the Orion, I can tell you that leads to nothing but frustration when someone can pop out from behind and kill you faster than you can turn around.
Honestly, on the distance subject, my favourite guns for distance firing have to be the NC ones. Since they pack more of a punch, you get more of a response when shooting someone at a distance. This is just how I work best though, with cold, calculated shots. Not everyone does though, and the VS weapons work best at range when fired quickly. And when someone can keep on target easily and keep that rate of fire up, that's when things get just a little bit unfair.

Some of the guns are upgrades, I'll give you that. The NS-11a comes to mind. Also note, though, that a number of the default guns are quite popular, and for good reason. For VS, several that come to mind are the Orion and the variant of the LA default carbine that has the underslung grenade launcher. Most of the guns are sidegrades, and the ones that aren't aren't a big enough difference to be a gamewinner. I've played a whole gorram lot of FPS matches in my time, and I have absolutely no hesitation in saying that skill is far more important than what gun you have. If the weapon was all that mattered, no CounterStrike player would ever be able to kill an enemy with a Glock.

This is the main reason why I hate all the whining about P2W: People aren't directing it at the right gorram things. Get mad about the bloody vehicle weapons! The fucking rocketpods, A2A missiles, the Lib cannons, the Lightning HE! A piddly little difference in your gun is nothing, a 1000cert weapon that turns an ESF from flying scrap into a moderately useful weapon is quite a lot.

Though I'd like to point out that the presence of just one upgrade gun will make things practically unbearable for those who can't get station cash. Basically the principle of any free to play mmo ever, if people can pay to win, then they will pay until there's nothing else they can pay for. And that's going to be a massive disadvantage to those who can't.

I'm also guessing that second part wasn't directed at me.

...Oh, and for the record, a regular free Burster MAX, is several orders weaker than a single phalanx AA turret.
And even with a Phalanx AA turret, one ESF versus one AA unit, the ESF is the likely winner.