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1: NC

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[Aklyon]

I'd been more talknig about it being more obvious than slight bonuses, but you have a point there.

[Dariush]

Most people don't even consider things pay to win as long as you can earn it in game by grinding for thousands of hours.

I disagree with the 'most' part. I've been a regular player of Tribes:Ascend for several months and I can say with certainty that after the last several updates with obviously overpowered weapons were released, there was a decent-sized shitstorm about it (that still continues), and that's not counting the minor background constant outrage at the hilariously huge prices of new weapons, both in-game and real-money-wise.

Your statement may be true for games whose target demographic is substantially older or stupider (specifically Xvilles and their spawn and various browsershit), but definitely not for such as we are discussing. Depending on the degree of P2W, a certain part of the playerbase will simply quit regardless of how P2W is dressed up and developers will have to take it into account. I haven't played PS1, but if the tales of deserted servers are true, I doubt developers would like to see it repeat in PS2.

[Levi]

I dunno.  So many people still play TF2...  I think relatively few people quit that when the store was introduced.  And the few conversions I've had about other F2P games (admittedly on the steam forums) always seems to have people using the "If you can get it in the game eventually then its not pay to win" line.

Edit:  I have too much rage about F2P games.  I apologize for derailing.

[Metalax]

I would be very impressed with a F2P game if they limited purchases to only cosmetics.  I still doubt it greatly though.

Super MNC have done this, and it seems to be working quite well.

Don't you buy whole classes in that one?  That is far from cosmetic.

From the wiki: 

Super Monday Night Combat also includes a microtransaction system, where players can buy new Pros, uniforms, taunts, weapon skins, and temporary Combat Credit boosts with real money. Players also can purchase new Pros, Endorsements (which buffs statistics while sometimes nerfing other statistics), and Products (special perks) with Combat Credits

Ah yes, you can buy pros with money, though it is rather silly to do so as you gain enough in game credits to buy a pro in about a week of five, 15 minute games a day. Also as somewhat more than a third of the pros are freely available, changing each week there is no real need to buy them. The only items that provide actual changes to abilities, endorsements and products, can only be purchased with in game currency/found as drops.

[Johnfalcon99977]

Its not Pay to win if the "bonus" you get is Balanced and is not more powerful then stuff people who don't pay can get. Buying a new weapon or Perk is fine as long as it is not obviously more powerful then you can get by not paying. The Free to Play model also works well as a Time Saver. Tribes Ascend seems to have handled this nicely, in the fact that you can buy Weapons, Perks, and other things with gold without needing to gain the EXP, but you can't buy Upgrades with Gold, only EXP.

Also: Siding with New Conglomerate. "Fauck da Powar" and so on and so forth.

[Levi]

Buying a new weapon or Perk is fine as long as it is not obviously more powerful then you can get by not paying.

*twitch*

See, I hate this viewpoint so much.  Nobody would ever accept this in any other competitive game. 

If the football leagues decided football teams could pay $10000 to have the football start 5 feet further down the field, people would scream bloody murder about how stupid it is, no matter how small an effect it actually has on the game.

Games should be 100% about skill, and 0% about how much you can pay.  99%/1% isn't good enough.

[Aklyon]

The problem with the no bonuses model is that you're thrown into either subscriptions (not very likely to work for more than a couple months unless your game is goddamn awesome), cosmetic-only (it could work, but are you really going to make that much on just (non-TF2) hats and skins and decals alone to make a profit?), or people buying the game up front with or without the cosmetics. It would be lovely if we could have 100% skill games all the time, but MMOs are expensive to make, have persistence (which means server, electricity, internet, and other bills of the expnsive kind), and you also need the company to not fall on its face into bankruptcy running said MMO; not every game will be as subscription-successful as WoW, nor as Hat-successful as TF2.

[Levi]

I'd rather just see them not be made then if they can't be successful and keep gameplay fair.  And if they weren't hundreds of silly F2P games sucking away at the available player base, I'd bet subscription or purchased games would be a bit more successful.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

We might as well just wait and see what happens, its no use arguing about it until either its released or something important comes along.

[Aklyon]

Its not just F2P games, its the fact that if you have multiple subscription-based games (and are playing 2+), then you invariably have to eventually drop down to only one when you need the money for other things. And if you can only paly one, most people will stick to the game they have the most friends still playing.
Purchased games, I don't really know anything else to say about.

[Johnfalcon99977]

Buying a new weapon or Perk is fine as long as it is not obviously more powerful then you can get by not paying.

*twitch*

See, I hate this viewpoint so much.  Nobody would ever accept this in any other competitive game. 

If the football leagues decided football teams could pay $10000 to have the football start 5 feet further down the field, people would scream bloody murder about how stupid it is, no matter how small an effect it actually has on the game.

Games should be 100% about skill, and 0% about how much you can pay.  99%/1% isn't good enough.

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say here. What I'm saying is that paying for something is fine as long as its balanced and fair compared to all the other weapons you can get in game for free. Using your example Its more like moving the ball more Left or right, but not actually changing its posistion.

Besides, have you ever considered that maybe just a slight advantage doesn't completely change the game? What matters the MOST is the people BEHIND the guns, not the guns themselves. If you can't hit the broadside of a Barn, a Gun with slightly better Damage or Reload time isn't going to change the fact that they can't hit the Broadside of a Barn. Works with the opposite direction as well. If you can Headshot someone from across the map with half the guns in the game, how is Slightly less recoil going to really effect your playing style? And if you are THAT skilled, then whats stopping you from using your large amounts of experience to get the gun without dishing out a cent? I think you may be too concerned about differences that actually don't change that much in the game.

...cosmetic-only (it could work, but are you really going to make that much on just (non-TF2) hats and skins and decals alone to make a profit?)...

I think you underestimate the power of a single persons disire to look different from everyone else. Trust me, that disire is pretty strong. Why do you think Valve made so much money off the hatstore in the first place?

[Frumple]

Wouldn't... wouldn't faster reload actually help if you couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, though? You could fire more shots, better chance of accidentally hitting something. That's an advantage a non-payer with bad aim couldn't get.

Still, if things were actually balanced I could probably cope. Just depends on if they're actually balanced and not just mechanically equal (see reload thing).

But yeah, looking forward to this, despite by infinite hatred toward SOE for what they did to Infantry. I heard good things about planetside.

[Reudh]

The way I see it, they could monetise it by:


- Monetising cosmetic items that have no effect on gameplay. Realm of the Mad God does this, as does TF2.

- Making higher leveled/ stronger weaponry able to be bought with real money, while still keeping them available as a drop via. grinds. That way, one can still get them without having to pay, but if one buys them they may avoid the grind for drops.
 
- I can see not many other ways for monetisation without Freemium gameplay... though.

[Girlinhat]

Reference: Mabinogi.  In the normal course of the market, you might find a particular item like a "Leather Long Bow" on sale for 100k.  That would be a "high end price" for a weapon that was already fully upgraded.  Then there were certain sources of special colors, a pink one that was only given during an event, or a red one that drops extremely rarely from certain mobs.  With the same upgrades, these would sell 2mil+ in some cases.  Same weapon - even a worse stat weapon - with a unique color would sell for boatloads.  Similarly, the game has a dye shop, where you can change the colors of your clothing, and those sell for fortunes.

Being unique is something people will spend money on, in real life and in games.  Mabinogi offers virtually no "pay to win" involved - people will argue that but the main buff cash shop items are things like "2x exp 1hr potion" and similar.  The main intake of money for Mabinogi is dyes (for unique characters), pets (for convenience), and monthly subscription (mainly for inventory, because it uses this inventory-tetris style that limits bag size).  You cannot really buy power.  You can buy exp buffs if you're willing to spend a lot, but at the core of it you're still going to be playing the game to utilize that power, nothing is handed to you.

That, I believe, is what it comes down to for proper microtransactions.  Mabinogi offers colors.  Others offer "quicker game" buffs.  If someone is earning 50% more exp than you, then they'll progress faster, but they won't reach a different end than you will.  Likewise, if someone headshots you with a black rifle, you're just as dead as if they'd been using a blue rifle.  I think a game like Planetside 2 will also feature some amount of teleporting for pay.  Sort of, "free players warp after 10 seconds, premium can warp immediately" deal.  This gets a little annoying, because that's an arbitrary restriction where the company sells you the disease along with the cure, but that can be allowed once you realize that the games need a way to make money somehow, and a 10 second wait is the least of your concerns.

On one microtransaction game, the cash shop features "cards" that you can buy.  These cards have a direct impact on gameplay, like "+30% stone gathering speed" or "Immediately add 800 wood to stockpiles".  This is how you directly buy power, and this is what I think Planetside 2 will avoid.

TL;DR - Planetside 2 may allow you to buy convenience or buy uniquely-styled gear, but I don't think you can buy victory.  Still, we'll have to see what the actual game features, I'm just speculating.

[Felius]

- Monetising cosmetic items that have no effect on gameplay. Realm of the Mad God does this, as does TF2.

Depending on how it is done, it risks getting far too silly. It's fine for TF2, but Planetside has a somewhat more serious tone.

- Making higher leveled/ stronger weaponry able to be bought with real money, while still keeping them available as a drop via. grinds. That way, one can still get them without having to pay, but if one buys them they may avoid the grind for drops.

If  it's actually feasible to get them without paying. There quite a few games that allegedly have this, but to get it for free you'd need to grind a dozen hundred hours for every minor item, which in the end is the same as paying to win.

I'd even be ok with something Planetside actually experimented with for a time, allowing restricted play until a certain point (the Reserve program in Planetside. You could only go up to level 5, but that didn't actually limited you all that much), as long as it does not actually make it impossible to compete with the paying players.

But yeah, now we wait and see what they'll deliver.