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1: NC

2: NC and TR

3: NC, TR and Vanu

[Flying Dice]

For those of you complaining about NC Maxes, just remember that they're shotguns. If you are close enough to get oneshotted then back the fuck up! Don't engage them in a situation where they have the advantage.

There are two problems with this:

1. I've played scatmax on my NC alt; those shotguns are closer to real shotguns than the 1-meter metal cloud dispensers that you find in most games. I had no trouble 2-3 shotting people as far away as 15-20 meters.

2. BIOLABS. I'd guess that at least 75% of scatmax grief come from Biolab fights because they're massive nests of CQC encounters. There are few angles where fights could even potentially occur at much more than 20 meters, and the vast majority of engagements will be at <5 meters. NC maxcrashes can take a Biolab fairly easily. A TR maxcrash can be shut down if you coordinate well, and a VS maxcr-HAHAHAHA YEAH RIGHT.

[majikero]

I'm in Vanu. I mostly play light assault. Sometimes, I go engineer if I use base cannons or want some portable AA and use heavy when I go hunt tanks.

[darkrider2]

Also, biolabs tend to be the longest lasting battles, which just adds to it.

Still blaming it all on bad level design, sure there can be areas where a type of weapon is dominant, but a whole damn facility? for battles that can last hours?

[Toaster]

VS MAXes are canonically a joke.  This has existed since PS1.

For those of you complaining about NC Maxes, just remember that they're shotguns. If you are close enough to get oneshotted then back the fuck up! Don't engage them in a situation where they have the advantage.

There are two problems with this:

1. I've played scatmax on my NC alt; those shotguns are closer to real shotguns than the 1-meter metal cloud dispensers that you find in most games. I had no trouble 2-3 shotting people as far away as 15-20 meters.

2. BIOLABS. I'd guess that at least 75% of scatmax grief come from Biolab fights because they're massive nests of CQC encounters. There are few angles where fights could even potentially occur at much more than 20 meters, and the vast majority of engagements will be at <5 meters. NC maxcrashes can take a Biolab fairly easily. A TR maxcrash can be shut down if you coordinate well, and a VS maxcr-HAHAHAHA YEAH RIGHT.

So is this an issue with the NC MAX or with the biolab?  Some weapons are going to be more effective in certain situations in others.  If you're pushing across flat land, let's say on Esamir down from Saerro into Echo Valley and Glacier Station, a TR MAX (and LMGs, and snipers, etc) will dominate.  Take the fight inside, and the NC MAX (and shotguns, SMG, etc) will be better.  It's simply by design that certain weapons are better for certain situations.

Do you accept this or give every MAX a shotgun option and a MG option?

[TolyK]

VS maxes are good at making the enemy laugh. Oh, and a bit at AA too, even the default one.

[Flying Dice]

VS MAXes are canonically a joke.  This has existed since PS1.

For those of you complaining about NC Maxes, just remember that they're shotguns. If you are close enough to get oneshotted then back the fuck up! Don't engage them in a situation where they have the advantage.

There are two problems with this:

1. I've played scatmax on my NC alt; those shotguns are closer to real shotguns than the 1-meter metal cloud dispensers that you find in most games. I had no trouble 2-3 shotting people as far away as 15-20 meters.

2. BIOLABS. I'd guess that at least 75% of scatmax grief come from Biolab fights because they're massive nests of CQC encounters. There are few angles where fights could even potentially occur at much more than 20 meters, and the vast majority of engagements will be at <5 meters. NC maxcrashes can take a Biolab fairly easily. A TR maxcrash can be shut down if you coordinate well, and a VS maxcr-HAHAHAHA YEAH RIGHT.

So is this an issue with the NC MAX or with the biolab?  Some weapons are going to be more effective in certain situations in others.  If you're pushing across flat land, let's say on Esamir down from Saerro into Echo Valley and Glacier Station, a TR MAX (and LMGs, and snipers, etc) will dominate.  Take the fight inside, and the NC MAX (and shotguns, SMG, etc) will be better.  It's simply by design that certain weapons are better for certain situations.

Do you accept this or give every MAX a shotgun option and a MG option?

It's an issue that one faction has an overwhelming advantage tied to an inherent trait of 1/3 of the major bases, and to all bases to some extent. A TR max can be killed even at its ideal range if you're careful. If you run into a scatmax at its ideal range, you're dead.

I'm okay with each faction's Max being specialized for a different role. I'm even okay with the VS Max being rubbish for everything but AA work. What I'm not okay with is when any faction has a unique tool that is specifically tailored to suit an environment that you have to fight in, which cannot be effectively countered with anything but weight of numbers or stupidity on the part of your opponent. It would be like giving VS a hitscan, no bullet drop, no damage reduction sniper rifle with a 1km max range, and then creating a set of bases which were crucial to the metagame and consisted of two towers surrounded by flat, empty plains.

I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that a dual scatmax is tied with bolt action rifle headshots and explosive direct hits for the fastest TTK of any infantry weapon. The TR Max's chaingun is good, but not remarkably so. The VS Max is virtually useless unless you've sunk a mountain of certs into it, and even then it's inferior to the other factions' Maxes.

_{Looks like the Magri- ah, shoe is finally on the other foot.}

[Toaster]

<insert link to magrider shoe video>

That didn't really answer the question, though.  Is weapon or world/level design at fault?

[kaian-a-coel]

I am perfectly fine with NC maxes killing everythng under 5m. I personally have no real problem dealing with them anyway, but I join people saying you shouldn't whine about getting insta-killed if you found yourself inside the scatmax killzone.

A TR max can be killed even at its ideal range if you're careful. If you run into a scatmax at its ideal range, you're dead.

Yes, and why is that a problem? the TR ideal range is far bigger than the NC's, so you have more trouble to get out of it, and NC max will have far more trouble getting you inside its killzone.
smaller killzone = lower TTK, and I'm fine with that.

I'm okay with each faction's Max being specialized for a different role. I'm even okay with the VS Max being rubbish for everything but AA work. What I'm not okay with is when any faction has a unique tool that is specifically tailored to suit an environment that you have to fight in, which cannot be effectively countered with anything but weight of numbers or stupidity on the part of your opponent. It would be like giving VS a hitscan, no bullet drop, no damage reduction sniper rifle with a 1km max range, and then creating a set of bases which were crucial to the metagame and consisted of two towers surrounded by flat, empty plains.

I can take on NC maxes in biolab just fine. By "just fine" I mean that I can actually survive an encounter, escape, and sometimes even kill them (assuming they're alone, because running into max+5 guys is instant death and it's normal.).
The sniper-friendly situation would be far worse. Or not, because an airdrop would be the bane of sniper-filled towers. Or just take sunderers. It's a matter of using the right counter. Would you assume that infantry would rush head-in?

[Flying Dice]

Honestly it could be construed as either or both; the issue is with a combination of a weapon which is absolutely brutal in a certain type of situation (CQC) and a type of environment oriented around that same situation which is crucial to map control (Biolabs). Changing Biolabs to be more open would dilute their role (providing a CQC environment for infantry), so the solution is to dilute the strength of the problem weapon (Scatmaxes). In short, I think that they are proportionally more effective in their role than just about anything else. This could be remedied in a number of ways but I think that the most elegant would be to markedly decrease their accuracy beyond very close range (~3 meters). That'd let them maintain their role as a CQC powerhouse and siegebreaker while also giving people a chance to engage them at fairly close ranges without being instantly blown away, as well as increasing the importance of engineer support and covering fire when they can't just pop around doorways.

I am perfectly fine with NC maxes killing everythng under 5m. I personally have no real problem dealing with them anyway, but I join people saying you shouldn't whine about getting insta-killed if you found yourself inside the scatmax killzone.

A TR max can be killed even at its ideal range if you're careful. If you run into a scatmax at its ideal range, you're dead.

Yes, and why is that a problem? the TR ideal range is far bigger than the NC's, so you have more trouble to get out of it, and NC max will have far more trouble getting you inside its killzone.
smaller killzone = lower TTK, and I'm fine with that.

The issue is that they're far more effective within their range than just about any other infantry weapon. Most things, even snipers, you'll have at least a second or two to react between first contact and death. With a scatmax, if you're inside its range and it sees you, you're almost certainly going to be dead if the player is at all competent. This is coming from both sides, incidentally, my main and my NC alt. The only way you have any sort of assurance of living is if he doesn't notice you or you're outside his range. Even with a single scat arm I could pop infantry at 10+m before they could react.

I'm okay with each faction's Max being specialized for a different role. I'm even okay with the VS Max being rubbish for everything but AA work. What I'm not okay with is when any faction has a unique tool that is specifically tailored to suit an environment that you have to fight in, which cannot be effectively countered with anything but weight of numbers or stupidity on the part of your opponent. It would be like giving VS a hitscan, no bullet drop, no damage reduction sniper rifle with a 1km max range, and then creating a set of bases which were crucial to the metagame and consisted of two towers surrounded by flat, empty plains.

I can take on NC maxes in biolab just fine. By "just fine" I mean that I can actually survive an encounter, escape, and sometimes even kill them (assuming they're alone, because running into max+5 guys is instant death and it's normal.).
The sniper-friendly situation would be far worse. Or not, because an airdrop would be the bane of sniper-filled towers. Or just take sunderers. It's a matter of using the right counter. Would you assume that infantry would rush head-in?

Have you ever played PS2? 

That aside, you bring up a good point: there are hard counters for virtually everything. There are no hard counters for fighting a scatmax in a Biolab short of overwhelming population advantage. Either you have so many people that the Maxes can't kill you all, or you sneak around and try to pop them with C4, or you run away and hope someone else kills them.

How often are those "just fine" situations ones where you've got teammates supporting you? How often are they ones where the Biolab is empty and you're slowly nickel-and-diming the Max's health over the course of many minutes because you can't do anything in a straight fight?

[Toaster]

A better fix would be to add a counter, and the counter is the Thumper.

Also, a conc grenade around the corner would work as well.

[palsch]

That aside, you bring up a good point: there are hard counters for virtually everything. There are no hard counters for fighting a scatmax in a Biolab short of overwhelming population advantage. Either you have so many people that the Maxes can't kill you all, or you sneak around and try to pop them with C4, or you run away and hope someone else kills them.

The closest to a hard counter against TR MAXes in biolabs I've found is a concussion grenade followed by C4. I've concussed a room with a MAX, two engineers and a medic, C4ed the MAX and one engineer then gone to town on the medic before they could recover. Expensive in resources and certs, but this is far from the only use for those certs and biolab fights tend to grant infantry resources at a really high rate.

They can still kill you if you walk straight in front of them, so doesn't work 100% of the time and probably slightly less against NC MAXes than the ones I usually fight, but still gives you a pretty decent chance.

[kaian-a-coel]

Have you ever played PS2? 

That aside, you bring up a good point: there are hard counters for virtually everything. There are no hard counters for fighting a scatmax in a Biolab short of overwhelming population advantage. Either you have so many people that the Maxes can't kill you all, or you sneak around and try to pop them with C4, or you run away and hope someone else kills them.

How often are those "just fine" situations ones where you've got teammates supporting you? How often are they ones where the Biolab is empty and you're slowly nickel-and-diming the Max's health over the course of many minutes because you can't do anything in a straight fight?

1) Why, yes. Does that refer to the "charging head on"? I usually jump over the nearest balcony if I cant kill someone before they see me.
2) I sneak around and pop them with C4. I play 95% LA
3) Well, I can't fight them straight, so I use ruse and C4. Once put a C4 on the ceiling over a point, it worked

[Flying Dice]

Yeah, that was about the infantry zerg. Because we all know that's what most people would do. 

Running straight at the enemy doesn't work? Run straight at them some more!

[kaian-a-coel]

I hope there will be at least some people will be smart enough to take the right counter x)
Wait, that could be a good idea in fact... the infantry hell...

[miauw62]

In my experience, most zergs have a small, hard core of one or multiple squads/platoons in them.