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[Loud Whispers]

I mean, when was the last time you saw a leather armor or a cloth shirt deflect a copper (or higher) weapon?

last ambush

Don't be quick to deny. Dwarf Fortress has a tendency to make the unreal become truth.

What's so unreal?

[MisterB777]

I mean, when was the last time you saw a leather armor or a cloth shirt deflect a copper (or higher) weapon?

last ambush

Seriously, leather and cloth items block copper and silver bolts/maces/hammers ALL THE TIME.  Occasionally, they block iron as well.  Just look at your combat logs. 

The combat results depend on (in no particular order):  1) the materials, 2) the type of damage, 3) the quality of the weapon, and 4) the abilities of the attacker.  A Legendary fighter will kill with his/her teeth through leather.  But, a really bad crossbowman can get his copper bolts blocked by a rope reed tunic.  And when it comes to blunt damage, a good macedwarf with a silver hammer will often have some shots blocked by <<cave fish leather armor>>.   

Edged and pointy damage versus leather and cloth does well (this has been established lots of places in this forum).  Blunt does not, and bolts have a tendency of doing blunt damage if they graze an opponent, which happens frequently, hence why lots of people at least put they archers in leather.

[sjaakwortel]

I mean, when was the last time you saw a leather armor or a cloth shirt deflect a copper (or higher) weapon?

last ambush

Seriously, leather and cloth items block copper and silver bolts/maces/hammers ALL THE TIME.  Occasionally, they block iron as well.  Just look at your combat logs. 

The combat results depend on (in no particular order):  1) the materials, 2) the type of damage, 3) the quality of the weapon, and 4) the abilities of the attacker.  A Legendary fighter will kill with his/her teeth through leather.  But, a really bad crossbowman can get his copper bolts blocked by a rope reed tunic.  And when it comes to blunt damage, a good macedwarf with a silver hammer will often have some shots blocked by <<cave fish leather armor>>.   

Edged and pointy damage versus leather and cloth does well (this has been established lots of places in this forum).  Blunt does not, and bolts have a tendency of doing blunt damage if they graze an opponent, which happens frequently, hence why lots of people at least put they archers in leather.

You try blocking something with soft leather clothing, a hammer migth not pierce it, but it has almost none damage reduction. Leather armor is a lot more stiff because its made with a different kind of leather and should protect a lot better, try cutting a piece of untanned leather.

[King Mir]

But does the game actually make a distinction between armour-tanned leather and clothing leather? Leather armour has a armour stat, but the material is the same. How does the armor stat impact protection? What if you made copper clothing, how well would that work as protection?

[Mr S]

The *<*copper mail tunic*>* pinches Urist McPoorclothingchoices in the upper body, bruising the skin and tearing the chest hair.  x100

[King Mir]

Well you would probably want to weave the copper thinner than mail. It'd be more like wearing aluminium foil. Or a mesh of copper electrical wire.

But yeah, there's a reason that metal is only used for surface embroidery on clothing.

[squeakyReaper]

They might have changed it, but I was under the impression that there was only two quality levels: masterwork and not masterwork. Things in between don't matter, they're just "not masterwork". Again, I could be quite wrong.

[sjaakwortel]

if you have a copper mail shirt it should work decently against any edged weapon. It wouldn't stop a good stab, but against slashing and such it absorbs most damage. The problem would be durability, everytime it takes a hit some links would get damaged and after 3 or 4 hits in the same area it would disintegrate.

[Loud Whispers]

if you have a copper mail shirt it should work decently against any edged weapon. It wouldn't stop a good stab, but against slashing and such it absorbs most damage. The problem would be durability, everytime it takes a hit some links would get damaged and after 3 or 4 hits in the same area it would disintegrate.

Not to mention the weight. Heavier than steel that stuff would be.

[TerryDactyl]

I am in a practice of equipping leathers for battle vs. blunt-weapon assailants. I feel, after some semi-scientific arena testing that the benefits of added speed are crucial, given that blunt damage mostly negates the value of armours, with the possible exception of steel and adamantium; However, to be sure, let's take a look at how DF describes the material.

Don't worry - I've clipped some of the extraneous data from the template.

Code: [Select]

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:LEATHER_TEMPLATE]
[SOLID_DENSITY:500]
[IMPACT_YIELD:10000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:10000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:10000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:10000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[TENSILE_YIELD:10000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:10000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[TORSION_YIELD:10000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:10000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[SHEAR_YIELD:25000] -- was 15 to 37 MPa in animal byproducts net pdf
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:25000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[BENDING_YIELD:10000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:10000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50000]
[MAX_EDGE:0]
[ABSORPTION:40]

I've added this to the material comparison chart on the weapons page of the wiki.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Weapon#Weapon_Material_Quality

The numbers suggest that it is (go figure) like wearing an extra layer of skin. Which ain't all bad. It's certainly better than the values we get for silk and cloth.

But this is strictly examining the [LEATHER] material entry...
When we refer to the raw descriptions of items like coats, tunics and trousers, there is another tag: [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD]. This suggests that 'clothing' offers rather poor protective value. Or maybe it means that it does little to hamper movement? In any case, we also see that these objects are [SOFT] - which may have combat implications, but seems mostly to be a determinant to which materials can be used in its construction.

[Duuvian]

I don't know how it would be against swinging cutting weapons, but df dwarves with access to giant cave spider silk in quantity could maybe fashion some nice protective padding material to put under metal armor out of it. I don't know how well it would do against bladed melee weapons but there are accounts of non penetration through silk with pre-1900 pistols according to this article:

From http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/NovDec98/MS328.htm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As long ago as 1881, the tough and protective qualities of silk were recognized. That year, George Goodfellow, a physician in Tombstone, Arizona, recorded his observations following a fatal gunfight. When examining a penetrating wound to the deceased gunfighter's chest, he discovered that, after passing through his outer clothing, the bullet had impacted with and pushed through the flesh a folded silken handkerchief. The bullet was encased within the handkerchief, and not one layer of the handkerchief had been penetrated. Goodfellow recorded this observation and others in a document called Notes on the Impenetrability of Silk. Another incident he recorded was a case of a bullet actually deflected from a man's neck by a silk scarf.

The silk involved in these incidents and others recorded in Goodfellow's record was derived from the domesticated silkworm. For a number of years, scientists have been examining silk obtained from a number of other sources. Spiders produce a variety of silks for different purposes. Drag-line silk provides the framework for the spider's web and also enables a dangling spider to free-fall down to snare its prey. Drag-line silk is lighter and has proven itself in many ways superior to Kevlar, the strongest synthetic polymer. It is stronger than steel and has the ability to stretch and rebound from approximately 15 percent of its original length. The military applications for men and machinery are obvious. Scientists have embarked upon a program of research designed to produce spider silk in quantities suitable for use in domestic and military applications.

More stuff: http://news.discovery.com/tech/body-armor-spider-silk-121015.html

[floundericiousWA]

Although leather armour is better than clothes, it's still useless against even the weakest weapons.

Cloth > Leather vs Edged attacks
Leather > Cloth vs Blunt attacks

Derivation? Source?

Adventure and Fortress mode anecdotes. The hardest non-science there is. Also a thread like this where someone poked at material values. Look in the raws.

The current armor system is basically "X penetrates Y always or X never penetrates Y", so it doesn't really matter from the practical perspective. If you're testing armor it should be atleast against a copper weapon, anything less is useless. Leather armor might be a tiny bit better against blunt attacks, but the difference is neglible in practise.

I mean, when was the last time you saw a leather armor or a cloth shirt deflect a copper (or higher) weapon? I can't recall any instances since the material system was introduced. Even if it happens, it's so unbelievably rare that saying "cloth is better than leather against edged weapons" has no real value ingame.

... Actually, I just had a battle today where a goblin axe was only bruising the muscle under a leather cloak