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Author Topic: The neverending fort  (Read 8344 times)

nanomage

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2012, 08:36:38 am »

I'm afraid that has something to do with caged insane vampires walled deep in abandoned mines.
Well, if you can manage to get the insane vampire into the section to be walled off, then technically the cage is optional. ;)
the cage is so that rampaging ghosts don't get them.
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Leafsnail

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2012, 08:38:02 am »

Won't you eventually run out of memory and crash the game?
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2012, 10:54:12 am »

I'm afraid that has something to do with caged insane vampires walled deep in abandoned mines.
Well, if you can manage to get the insane vampire into the section to be walled off, then technically the cage is optional. ;)
the cage is so that rampaging ghosts don't get them.

Yes, if the insane (must be melancholy or stark raving mad, NOT berserk) vampire is not caged, a violent ghost will rip his head off or something and it's game over.

nanomage

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2012, 11:01:35 am »

I'm afraid that has something to do with caged insane vampires walled deep in abandoned mines.
Well, if you can manage to get the insane vampire into the section to be walled off, then technically the cage is optional. ;)
the cage is so that rampaging ghosts don't get them.

Yes, if the insane (must be melancholy or stark raving mad, NOT berserk) vampire is not caged, a violent ghost will rip his head off or something and it's game over.
actually might be better with werecreatures, because they could grow back removed limbs and also because I believe their happiness counter is reset when they transform.
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Miuramir

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2012, 02:34:19 pm »

A challenge: make a fort that could in theory last forever. Not just for a couple thousand years - forever.

The parameters involved make a significant difference.  To start, I'm going to assume *completely* vanilla DF, with no mods, no hacks, no outside tools, etc.  The other question is how much intervention from a player is required; my thought is that the player is allowed to set things up as needed, but once the "eternity lever" is pulled, there will be no further player input, and the fort is "scored" on a combination of how many centuries it lasts, and how interesting it is.  Presumably the init files will be edited to remove all pauses, etc.

I'm going to skip for the moment any limits regarding memory, year rollover, integer overflow, or the like; those are in some senses external to the simulation. 

I'm also temporarily assuming that while a fort consisting merely of an insane vampire in a cage (or some such arrangement) may technically continue to exist, it will score very little; the interesting question is how to do it with normal dwarves. 

The primary long-term limitation is that nothing will be built or rebuilt, and no one will be assigned jobs; the only labors performed will be those that everyone does by default.  AFAIK this means the dwarves will be eating plump helmets, and drinking well water.  Additionally, dwarves will have to be graveyarded and left to rot away, which will be a significant morale hit.  Assuming the fort is sealed off, it will need to be luxurious enough to keep everyone ecstatic despite that, because tantrums could be an eventual killer.. anything broken or overturned will never be replaced. 

Once you've got your gold dining room for your dwarfs to eat their plump helmets and water in (and various other happiness measures), you need to worry about moods.  My understanding is that moods are limited by a number based on the max number of dwarves, and the squares dug out.  Obviously no more squares will be dug, and you can probably assume that part of setup would be to deal with a number of moods while still under player control.   What I'm less certain of is whether with a roughly steady-state population fort, with dwarves dying of old age and others growing up, you will have a continual trickle of new moods.  If so, this may *eventually* end your fort.  An important question I'm not sure of is whether a berserk dwarf can destroy a field; if so and you get a slow trickle of moods, eventually that's going to be the unavoidable killer; no matter how many you start with, if they are never replaced, eventually there will be no more fields, then no more food, and then no more dwarfs. 

Ghosts are another issue; they are poorly understood still.  If dwarves dying of old age never leave ghosts, and moods cap out, then you're OK; there shouldn't be any accidental deaths to cause hostile ghosts.  If old-age-ghosts can happen, but never possess living dwarves or damage physical objects, you're also OK, although the fort is going to get pretty creepy eventually ("the dead outnumber the living").  If moods don't cap out, eventually not only will you have berserking failed-mood dwarves, but subsequently angry ghosts; who may cause other problems and lead to a ghostly-aided tantrum spiral.  Remember, under the circumstances, a table pushed over during a tantrum is a table lost forever.  For "medium" term fortress, several hundred to a few thousand years, you could simply have "enough" spares of everything... golden dining rooms extending for entire Z levels, acres of barracks beds, huge arrays of compartmentalized 5x5 farms, and so on; in hopes that whatever damage the dwarves manage to do to their utopia isn't enough to bring it down.  But if you are talking truly long term, anything consumed or destroyed will run out or fail some day. 

My current assumption is that if you seal off before getting a baron, especially if you seal off before any caravans or liaisons come, that you don't have to worry about any appointed positions or nobility. 

A recent problem will be clothing.  You may need yet more opulent surroundings to cancel bad thoughts from eventual nakedness, as I'm not aware of any vanilla means to set up a perpetual clothing industry. 
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CodexDraco

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2012, 03:18:24 pm »

Once you get your farming setup you can simply leave clothing in repeat and never run out of cloth.

The problem I see is that once your farmers die of old age nobody will replace them so dwarves are going to need to eat vermin. Even if you manage to not make them insane by eating vermin, vermin will run out and so your dwarves will eventually die of starvation.
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Finely minced dwarven wine... what?

Asra

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2012, 03:42:38 pm »

Turn all of your dwarfs into vampires, wall off all the borders with statues so you will no longer get any more migrants, then wall your dwarfs off and you will never have to worry about anything again. That should work, but where would the fun in that be? I'm not sure if vampires even reproduce, so once everyone has had their fell mood the only thing that could kill your vampire dwarfs would be grudge-based tantrum spirals, which are harder to actually kill vampires than you would think if none of them are military.
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CodexDraco

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2012, 04:10:36 pm »

Can vampires get tantrums? I think I read somewhere they are permanently happy.

Anyway, to protect against failed moods, can't you put your craft dwarf shops behind long weapon-trap protected corridors?
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Finely minced dwarven wine... what?

Asra

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2012, 04:20:04 pm »

Can vampires get tantrums? I think I read somewhere they are permanently happy.

Anyway, to protect against failed moods, can't you put your craft dwarf shops behind long weapon-trap protected corridors?
Then you'd need to keep coffins ready, but with a fortress of vampires you wouldn't really need to worry about needing more coffins than the maximum number of dwarfs in the fortress at any one time. They also don't need to eat or drink, but at some point they'll all become really slow from lack of alcohol.


I was sure that vampires could be unhappy though, I've heard of vampires tantruming behind walls too. Might have changed though.
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Dorfimedes

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2012, 04:23:35 pm »

Well, as for the tomb problem, once all the relatives that would care are all dead you could just deconstruct the coffin, toss the body in the magma pipe and memorialize them if they decide to haunt the fort. Then you would only need to worry about running out space for memorial slabs, but it could buy you time. And don't ghosts die of old age? Or was that bug fixed?
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"It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Someone who has never played DF.

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WealthyRadish

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2012, 04:41:04 pm »

Migrants would need to arrive, which would mean that the fort couldn't be sealed off or protected by drawbridges. Any attack by an enemy that isn't affected by traps would therefore pose a major threat, with some method of elimination required. The only form of a military would be hunters, who would likely hunt until they run out of bolts before they run out of prey, making them useless. So the fort would end either when the last hamster is eaten, following the death of the last farmer, or after the first kobold ambush/trap avoid titan. Bummer.

Edit:
Oh, a sealed fort may work if a vampire is made a farmer, growing plump helmets, with a minecart or chute system dumping seeds/food in/out. Then migrants wouldn't be required for survival.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 04:47:27 pm by UrbanGiraffe »
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CodexDraco

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2012, 04:45:29 pm »

I'm pretty sure it would be possible to create an automatic air lock system for new migrants that would keep anything else outside. But can't you simply turn off migration?
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Finely minced dwarven wine... what?

WealthyRadish

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2012, 04:49:10 pm »

Without migrants, all farmers will eventually die, leaving nothing but children and peasants. Unless one's a vampire, that is, sealed away.
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Viking

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2012, 07:36:45 pm »

The idea of siege equipment being used against my fort makes my inner dwarf shudder in fear. It means I'd have to be obsessive about training the military :(
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 07:41:55 pm by Viking »
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ObeseHelmet

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Re: The neverending fort
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2012, 07:40:39 pm »

At some point, no more stone

Why has no one else noticed this yet? It seems like kind of an obvious problem. If you are really trying to make a fort last forever, you will eventually run out of stone.

Forever isn't just a long time. It's legit infinity.

Of course, FPS would die far sooner...
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