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Author Topic: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."  (Read 10703 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2012, 02:09:54 pm »

I'm pretty sure it falls at least partially to the prosecutor to decide if the case against the defendant has collapsed.  Apart from anything else it's a waste of time and money to keep pressing a dead case.
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Neonivek

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2012, 02:10:54 pm »

Well what happens after they charge someone they have very little evidence against G-flex is it gets thrown out in pretrial.

Charging someone they have no evidence against is more incompetent then immoral.

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I'm pretty sure it falls at least partially to the prosecutor to decide if the case against the defendant has collapsed

Indeed. that is one of their lesser known jobs.
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mainiac

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2012, 03:54:38 pm »

The justice system requires that the defensive council act in the best interests of their client regardless of the guilt or innocence of the client.  The prosecution is not supposed to behave in the same manner.  It would in fact be horrific to contemplate if they were.
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kaenneth

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2012, 11:56:41 pm »

Prosecutors don't like to admit they were wrong.

If they charge person A, then find clear evidence A is innocent, they almost never go after persons B, C or D.
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Theoboldi

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2012, 02:12:01 am »

Already saw this somewhere else, and I'm still confused as to what the prosecution was even thinking with this case. Seeing someone work so hard to get an obviously innocent man killed is unbelieveable, especially since the prosecution is supposed to represent the state in court.
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ToonyMan

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2012, 03:45:48 am »

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It's not moral, and I doubt it's legal to continue prosecuting someone you know is innocent.
No it is perfectly moral and legal to do so. Our justice system only functions because there are two sides who are pitted against eachother.
Now if the prosecutor continued the case when the evidence overwhelmingly was against him. Then there would be something there. The prosecutor should be entirely focused on putting that person away even if they themselves fully believe that person to be innocent.
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MorleyDev

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2012, 04:36:32 am »

All I can think of is the Blackadder II episode Head...
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Starver

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2012, 05:55:40 am »

I don't really want to discuss the merits or otherwise of the death penalty[1], but to those who talk about whether prosecutors should prosecute those that they believe are innocent, there's also the flip-side of whether defenders should defend those that they believe are guilty.

Everyone is entitled to having someone defend them (if they don't go down the route of rejecting any defence or actually representing themselves, of course) but I've heard various prominent lawyers say in interviews that they would primarily have to act upon what the client told them (even if it's "it wasn't me, it was aliens, who framed me with a doppelganger", however difficult it would make their case), but if they really could not defend them for some reason (maybe even being told "Yeah, it was me, but you'll get me off, right?" for the principled guys who tend to answer these kinds of questions truthfully) that they'd ask that the client obtain some other legal representation.  Is this right or wrong?  What if every potential representative is convinced that you're guilty (and not willing to go against their conscience).  Disenfranchisement results.

Of course, there should be legal backstops "this person will never get a fair trial" and such (which could even be invoked by those that believe their guilt, because it could still invoke measures that would defend the public even while the individual from the mob-mentality), and (quite likely) there's always the possibility of an Evil Perry Mason who can might even get genocide converted down to no more a parking fine[3] in the inverse situation.


Of course, I have very little experience (and essentially none, beyond the fictional representations) of the US legal system.  I'm under the impression that when there is enough political/social will to try someone there'll be someone asked to prosecute.  I've no idea how much "I can't prosecute, I think they're innocent!" wiggle-room there is for passing the buck.  DAs, etc, tend to get seen to take on the politically-expedient jobs (for good or ill) from what I see, although whether that's because they're after making more of a name for themselves (often they are, in fictional accounts with corrupt DAs) or because "nobody else dares/wants to and it needs doing" (again, a common fictional play, this time generally the reformer/anti-corruption DAs going 'against the system-gone-wrong').


But all of that is just words of bad speculation, influenced by fairy tales.  In an ideal world there probably needs to be both those who would defend the 'clearly' indefensible and those who would prosecute the 'obviously' innocent, because when the process is gone through it may be found to be not so clear-cut.  Of course, not only do we have that kind of people, but we have the kinds who will do so at any personal moral cost.  And now the line blurs even more, for good or ill.  And the effects of rogue/misguided juries (or judicial panels of whatever kind) are another issue.


You may also consider this to be nothing at all to do with the thread, in which case you are free to ignore it.


[1] We don't have it here, and a number of people are calling for it to be available; you have it there and a number[2] of people are calling for it to be abolished.  The phrase "hard cases make bad laws" applies in both cases, to some extent.


[2] A different number/proportion, but neither numbers matter, outside of actually going out there and voting for/against something (either directly, or for representatives who support their POV)...  There'll always be dissenting opinions, because these issues are complex!

[3] That's hyperbole; I don't actually think that's necessarily a desirable situation.
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mainiac

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2012, 11:58:21 am »

The principle is that everybody deserves a lawyer to defend them in court.  If we only granted the "innocent" the right to legal council then we could just skip the bother of going through the trial, no?
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2012, 12:03:38 pm »

There is a huuuge difference between not prosecuting someone because of evidence of his innocence and not defending someone because of evidence of his guilt
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G-Flex

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2012, 01:24:49 pm »

I don't really want to discuss the merits or otherwise of the death penalty[1], but to those who talk about whether prosecutors should prosecute those that they believe are innocent, there's also the flip-side of whether defenders should defend those that they believe are guilty.

Of course they should, because even the guilty have rights. Someone happening to be guilty doesn't diminish the accused's right to a fair trial or other constitutional/civil rights afforded to him. For example, what if evidence was obtained illegally? What if the prosecutor decides to violate court procedure? What if he was never read his Miranda rights? Even a guilty person deserves representation to ensure that if he is found guilty, it's all done lawfully and nobody's rights are violated in the process.

Of course, there's also the simple fact that if a defendant couldn't be honest with his attorney, he simply wouldn't be, period, making things harder for the defendant and the court.
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Neonivek

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2012, 01:49:43 pm »

Also I want to call people out on this

"Ohh they are obviously innocent so the prosecution are obviously doing something wrong by making them guilty"

But here is the thing.

Cases are won by evidence. If the person was obviously innocent then the defense could have sat down, said not a single word... and the case would have been thrown out in trial.

Obviously there is enough evidence to make a case and in that case the prosecution are bound to actually see it through. The justice system ONLY works because we have two opposed sides. It hurts the justice system when either of those sides are not trying. Even if the prosecution 100% not a doubt in their mind believes someone is innocent... They better try as hard as they possibly can to get that person found guilty of murder because anything else wouldn't be justice.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:51:35 pm by Neonivek »
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Theoboldi

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2012, 02:07:17 pm »

It hurts the justice system when either of those sides are not trying. Even if the prosecution 100% not a doubt in their mind believes someone is innocent... They better try as hard as they possibly can to get that person found guilty of murder because anything else wouldn't be justice.
Are you friggin serious? It's justice to try to bring someone into jail, in this case even get him killed even if it's possible that he's innocent? Even if the job of the prosecution to prove that the person is guilty, it doesn't mean that they need to get him into jail at any cost.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2012, 02:10:04 pm »

Except the prosecution is not omniscient. If the system is working, they should ONLY be able to get him into jail if he IS guilty. If they succeed, and he turns out to be innocent, they are not the part of the system that's broken.

What's wrong is when they pull dirty and questionably legal tricks to pull it off.
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Theoboldi

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Re: "Sorry, we executed the wrong man."
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2012, 02:19:37 pm »

But they are the part that is broken. Their very objective is to get someone found guilty of a crime. If the mentality of needing to get people found guilty leads to such cases as this, it's obvious that it doesn't work as intended.

The justice system ONLY works because we have two opposed sides.
And this. This I disagree with so extremely much. Just take a look at some countries where the prosecution takes a more neutral role, like germany. You'll find that it works just as well, if not better, than America's system.
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