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Author Topic: An Essay on Male Suicide  (Read 26231 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2012, 02:53:21 pm »

But people (largely men) look at feminists and go 'OH MAH GAWD! THEM ARE BITCHES THAT WANT ENSLAVEZ US MEN!'
Contrary to popular belief, most people don't point at feminists and shout 'OH MAH GAWD! THEM BITCHES WANT TO ELSAVEZ US MEN AND TOOK AR JAWBS!' unless they're trying to do what's on the tin. And when it comes down to occasions when it is what's on the tin, you get an equal level of disgust from both sexes. Seen the femithiest blogspot?

No, people, especially those who fight for "Men's Rights", do demonize feminists. That Femitheist Blogspot is so obviously a troll that it's painful you believe it to be real.

That was a low, low blow.

To prevent the violence of men incensed by their testosterone... she wanted to kill and murder people. Do you really think that this not either a) a troll or b) somebody so insane that treating their positions seriously is ludicrous? It is so clearly constructed with such absurd self-deprecating humor that only somebody who goes 'OH MAH GAWD! THEM BITCHES WANT TO ELSAVEZ US MEN AND TOOK AR JAWBS!' would take it seriously.
It doesn't matter whatever the hell she was doing, the fact of the matter is it was met with equal disgust by both sexes. If you want to believe it's real or a troll, it doesn't matter, and I don't know how you managed to think I was asking for a judgement about her lunatic ravings.
My point is, you were implying that the majority of people who criticize feminists have about as much going on in their head as a redneck, and are inherently male.
And fyi, the people fighting for "men's rights" are a very, small minority, which have barely even been seen for quite a while now. They're about as common as the feminists who propose national castration day for equality  ::)
(Pretty much an endangered species, except where copious amounts of orthodox religion is involved)

Cthulhu

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2012, 02:57:09 pm »

I see "Men's rights" people all the time, especially on the internet.

If you listened to the right parts of the internet, you'd think there has never been a more oppressed group than middle-class white American men who support Ron Paul.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2012, 03:00:59 pm »

I see "Men's rights" people all the time, especially on the internet.

If you listened to the right parts of the internet, you'd think there has never been a more oppressed group than middle-class white American men who support Ron Paul.

A watering hole for like minded individuals. I wouldn't be surprised that normal geographical borders get smashed down for such... "Oppressed" individuals as well.

ChairmanPoo

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2012, 03:10:16 pm »

I don't get where does all this castration fear come from. Men are largely still in a better position than women, overall, barring minoritary exceptions. And while the latter do deserve addressing, it's a long call from rightfully having to panic because of some worldwide feminist conspiracy.

PD: chances are, if you're reading this, you're not one of those minoritary exceptions

If you listened to the right parts of the internet, you'd think there has never been a more oppressed group than middle-class white American men who support Ron Paul.
indeed
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 03:18:45 pm by ChairmanPoo »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2012, 03:24:37 pm »

I don't get where does all this castration fear come from. Men are largely still in a better position than women, overall, barring minoritary exceptions. And while the latter do deserve addressing, it's a long call from rightfully having to panic because of some worldwide feminist conspiracy.
The castration thing is a joke from some nuts girl, not really important.

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Men are largely still in a better position than women, overall, barring minority exceptions.
How so are they largely better?
What are these "minority exceptions"?
I'd like to think we live in a gender equal society, but please, do change my mind.

Vector

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2012, 03:33:48 pm »

Hey, it looks like it's time for another visit from everyone's favorite feminazi!


It's funny when a woman slaps a man, it's horrifying when a man slaps a woman.  My mother throws all sorts of childish fits whenever she pleases and my dad just has to watch her flip out and wait.

If she's mentally ill in some way, then that's an entirely different thing than a gender divide.  I'm saying this particularly because I think different forms of childishness are encouraged in stereotypical masculinity and femininity; you know, there's also the thing where men can go to the age of 30 or higher wearing their inability to cook or "do women's work" as a badge of pride, whereas women are more permitted to cry over stupid things/be manipulative about it, like 3-year-olds.

It's "funny" when a woman slaps a man because the idea of her being able to hurt him is seen as ridiculous (which is, ya know, ridiculous).  I actually told my current boyfriend that I would never joke about hitting him partially because I've been in a lot more physical altercations than he has.  "Haha, you can slap me for that" becomes a lot less funny that way.

(Note: I don't advocate unasked for violence in relationships at all.  I don't care who's stronger and who's weaker, it's still disgusting)


Euld, get used to it. You are a Privileged White Male. You have the privilege to be expendable and worthless, the privilege to give a woman your seat, to defend them, to be accused of rape, to pay for everything.

These are all old standbys from the days when women were the property of their male relatives (not so much on the being accused of rape thing).  It's like your favorite shirt.  Someone fucks it up and you're not going to go "Okay, shirt, take care of yourself!"  No, that's ridiculous!  You'd better punch the guy, because they're messing with something that belongs only to you!

Similarly, if a woman was making a third of what you were and was using most of her salary to dress up fancy and please you (i.e. the situation until very recently), you sort of obviously were expected to pay for her dinner.  The idea was "get used to how much it's going to cost to support a wife."  You pay her money, she provides you with a uterus (note: spousal rape wasn't illegal until 1993--access to a uterus was considered the right of the husband!  So yes, back then you were kind of paying for a sex-servant).

In the modern world, I think it's nice for one person to cover dinner on one night, and the other on another.  You get the feeling that you're taking care of each other without the gender inequality issues.  On the other hand, if one of you is a secretary and the other an engineer, and you're dating at all seriously, the engineer should probably do most of the paying for restaurant dinners (or any equivalent low- high-paying job combo).  In general, I as a woman was also told that when someone asks you out to dinner and pays, and they seem fairly trustworthy, you can offer to cook them dinner or make baked goods (so they don't get the idea that they're paying for sex with dinner, which is unfortunately a kind of widespread problem).  There's an expected evenness of exchange that I think a lot of MRAs don't really recognize.


As a working example, think of the often-cited sex inequalities in clothing. Women can wear trousers and suits (tradionally masculine clothing) without too much social censure (assuming you're not in a highly conservative area) and still be free to wear feminine clothing with all the accessorising they want. Men cannot wear dresses and other feminine without being derided as deviant freaks, according to mainstream social norms we're basically stuck in fucking jeans, t-shirts and jackets our whole lives.

Part of the problem here is that we're still living in a male-gaze, masculine-slanted culture.  What I mean is that there's still a viewpoint that Everything Feminine is Bad (considering the following insults: bitch, pussy, c***, wuss, girly, effeminate; note the lack of paired words to things like "emasculate;" oh, and I found these essays interesting).  There's also a viewpoint that men aren't objects of desire.  They're the actors, not the passive recipient of the gaze--unlike women, who are expected to dress up and make themselves into objects of attraction, no matter what it takes.

That's only this specific thing, but I guess what I'm saying is that this is a problem which the current wave of feminism knows about and is working on fixing.  The wave we're in recognizes that to fully free women, we must also fully free men.  It asks for new social roles for men, as well, partially because many of the rules for masculine formation of social identity form themselves in opposition to and domination of the feminine.  Why the heck would we be for this?


One issue that really bugs me is how male genital mutilation is still done widescale in the US, but people are horrified by female genital mutilation.

For one thing, making circumcision illegal would cause an enormous religious-practices problem.  I'm not saying it's right, but what I'm saying is that hopefully we'll get a little farther away from WWII and be able to discuss these things with clearer heads.

For another thing, I wasn't aware that American men were systematically having their penis completely removed or stabbed with hot needles so that they couldn't experience sexual pleasure at all?  If so, then that IS a horrific practice exactly on scale with FGM!

(By the way, the surgical clitoral removal model is more of the stereotypical African version, which is partially seen as barbaric for obvious reasons, partially due to xenophobia--the hot needle model was practiced by the Victorians).

What I'm saying is that circumcision may be a horrific practice.  I wouldn't really know, because I don't know a damned thing about foreskins.  However, it really doesn't seem to belong on the same scale as the FGM being practiced today.  If it is a problem and not merely a matter of cosmetics, then by all means it should be ended--but I don't really think that the appropriation of castrative experiences is the right way to discuss it.


The thing is, society still treats women as if they are poor delicate little flowers, in need of constant protection. Feminists want "equal" rights, they want the perks with none of the down sides. If a woman hits me, assaults me, want to know what society expects me to do? Take it like a man. If a woman accuses me of rape, without any proof, society will overwhelmingly take her side, even withholding information that could proof my innocence. Do you see any feminists saying women should have to sign up for the draft? No, you don't.

You do know that when folks instate a draft, that usually means that women are being drafted to have a hell of a lot of babies with whoever makes it home alive... right?  And that there's a lot of looking the other way about rape by returning soldiers and so on and so forth?

(Frankly, as a pacifist, I prefer a universe where we don't have a draft.  If it's a war worth fighting, people will go fight it.  Otherwise they won't.  This seems very simple to me.  If women want to join the armed forces and meet reasonable qualifications, then they should be able to do it)

Also, it's not exactly like women want to be told every moment of single day "You're powerless and your life depends on my clemency."  I'm all for people protecting each other--I think the reaction to this of "this means we must all go our own way" is ridiculous, too, because it doesn't create anything like community.  People need each other... acting like women are the only needy ones is really dishonest.

What's more, the "take it like a man; men are always guilty of force" meme falls into the same old problems of

a. assuming that being a man is a Fundamentally Good Thing, rather than value-neutral (the phrase implies "don't take it like a girl")

b. assuming that women are childlike in their innocence (or, in the case of "she must have been asking for it," which is also breathtakingly common--whores, devils, temptresses)


Basically, what I'm saying is this: I feel like men are starting to realize that they aren't exactly getting a fair shake either, but rather than blaming the social structures in place (as in 3rd-wave feminism), they're blaming the opposite sex (as in 2nd-wave feminism).  And furthermore, I don't feel like we've gotten too much feminism so much as too little; but because some men associate feminism with a loss of absolute power at the top of the hierarchy and they recognize difficulties and confusions with their own roles, they're getting childishly upset with the loss of their control rather than at the society that demands that men always be on top of everything.  The secret is that men were never fully in control in the first place... they may have had a certain societally sanctioned control of women, but they had no ability to control things like the weather.  They were always subordinate to their environments.  They were always raised from children by adult caretakers; they always had part of their lives when they needed to be protected (and we only like to pretend that human beings stop being vulnerable once they've attained the age of majority).

So yeah, the expectation that men be Masters of Everything is deleterious, harmful, and absurd, and I'll be more than happy to help dismantle it in favor of a more reasonable viewpoint.  For all of us.


I'd like to think we live in a gender equal society, but please, do change my mind.

I'll start by citing the continuing misogyny about things like women and their ability to do mathematics, or their capability for rational thought in general.

Also, there's this.  Statistics!


Oh, and in case anyone needs help figuring out if something is feminist or not, I'm linking this helpful tumblr: Is This Feminist?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2012, 03:53:10 pm »

spousal rape
Whelp, scratching the surface of a whole bunch of nasty.

I'd like to think we live in a gender equal society, but please, do change my mind.
I'll start by citing the continuing misogyny about things like women and their ability to do mathematics, or their capability for rational thought in general.
Never in my lifetime seen this happen. A result of gender stereotypes, which unfortunately still exist for some reason.
Also, there's this.  Statistics!
I live a continent away in a lucky place then.
Quote
The ratio of women’s and men’s median annual earnings, was 77.0 for full-time, year-round workers in 2009, essentially unchanged from 77.1 in 2008. (This means the gender wage gap for full-time year-round workers is now 22.9 percent.) This is below the peak of 77.8 percent in 2007
Would that not be attributed to men on average working more than hours per week than women?

Criptfeind

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2012, 03:56:19 pm »

Nope.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2012, 03:59:44 pm »

Why exactly would one get payed more over than another for doing the exact same thing then? Isn't really a smart business plan imo

cameron

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2012, 04:01:41 pm »

The point isn't that it is a logical business plan, or even a conscious decision to pay women less but that it is a result of traditional gender roles and pay structures which have persisted
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Vector

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2012, 04:03:50 pm »

Over here, attacks on women's ability to think at all are kind of normal.  A lot of my evidence is anecdotal; on the other hand, I'm a woman studying math at UC Berkeley, which has been good in some respects and not so good in others (example: 20% women in a math class is considered surprising and something to be happy about).

And no, the wage gap has been present in every single study I've read, no matter what they controlled for (number of years worked, education, benefits vs. wages, hours put in, etc.).  One of the reasons for this is that men often get raises when they want to start families, whereas women are not seen as breadwinners and therefore assumed to not need as much salary as a man.  There's also the assumption of mood instability and stuff like that (even though PMS as such actually doesn't exist).  Hence we get passed up for promotions, etc.


Why exactly would one get payed more over than another for doing the exact same thing then? Isn't really a smart business plan imo

Because men are "better."  You pay them to encourage them, because you aren't going to get much out of a woman anyway.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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Loud Whispers

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2012, 04:23:44 pm »

anecdotal evidence and studying math which I probably don't understand

Congrats by the way, but I don't think you need to prove whether or not the gender stereotype of women "being terrible at maths" or whatever, it's pretty equal on the abilities of both genders to not even warrant attention (in fact girls on average do marginally better than boys of the same age at schools in tests here).

The point isn't that it is a logical business plan, or even a conscious decision to pay women less but that it is a result of traditional gender roles and pay structures which have persisted
And my point is that this isn't the blame of males. Sexism =/= against all.

Hell, I think inequalities against both sexes are caused by
gender stereotypes, which unfortunately still exist for some reason,
too.

women not seen as breadwinners assumed to not need as much salary as man

...

Because men are "better."  You pay them to encourage them, because you aren't going to get much out of a woman anyway.
I can't argue for the rest of the world, but when it comes to earning jobs, women in the UK have begun earning more than men, and actually have preference when it comes to hiring over men, as opposed to just half a decade ago, when what you mentioned was the norm.
The world has really changed in two decades, and I'd say feminism shouldn't exist - because gender issues aren't specific anymore, but apparently it isn't a global level of at least workable equality yet.
Faith in majority of humanity -1.2

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Edit

One issue that really bugs me is how male genital mutilation is still done widescale in the US, but people are horrified by female genital mutilation.
For one thing, making circumcision illegal would cause an enormous religious-practices problem.  I'm not saying it's right, but what I'm saying is that hopefully we'll get a little farther away from WWII and be able to discuss these things with clearer heads.

For another thing, I wasn't aware that American men were systematically having their penis completely removed or stabbed with hot needles so that they couldn't experience sexual pleasure at all?  If so, then that IS a horrific practice exactly on scale with FGM!
Make it illegal? I support civil liberties, let you do what you want to your own body, as long as you know the full risks and consent.
Babies cannot consent. I'd much rather make it illegal for babies to be circumcised without them reaching an age of consent. For a choice that'll affect them greatly, doing exactly what you described - removing sexual pleasure, and in some cases - completely, not to mention posing in some cases cause disadvantageous health risk.
The amount of nerves in the clitoris - 8000
The amount of nerves in the foreskin - 20000/70000
Which is why I wish we could pursue issues as a species, and not by gender ;/
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 04:32:41 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Vector

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2012, 04:27:20 pm »

Well, perhaps things are okay in the UK, then =)  I have to say that I only know about the US, which is turning into a bizarre hotbed of social conservatism of late.  It seems that things are just getting more and more entrenched over here.

EDIT: I meant the removal of the foreskin in babies.  If it's considered an issue which requires consent, then it's going to cause a major religious problem in the US (as opposed to FGM, which is only a non-problem religiously/culturally because the practicing cultures are seen as "far away" from ours and unimportant minorities *eyeroll*).  As far as the rest of it goes, I have a really hard time seeing it as analogous to the removal of the clitoris largely due to which structures coincide with which embryologically speaking, but can certainly agree that it's basically the same thing as cutting off the clitoral hood, which... eh.  I have no problem calling it "male genital mutilation" so long as we're not pretending it's an exact analogue to the same thing that's happening to women.  Removing sources of sexual pleasure, yes; probably not a good idea, also yes; same degree, absolutely not.

Hopefully we can fix the health problems which are supposed to arise from circumcision by teaching better hygenic practices to young men, and then there will be no cogent argument whatsoever for continuation of the practice.  The more I look at it, the more it seems kind of ridiculous to do something like that en masse.  Thanks for the food for thought!


(And thanks for your good wishes, as well)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 04:46:20 pm by Vector »
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Loud Whispers

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2012, 04:34:49 pm »

Well, perhaps things are okay in the UK, then =)  I have to say that I only know about the US, which is turning into a bizarre hotbed of social conservatism of late.  It seems that things are just getting more and more entrenched over here.
It's very multicultural, but otherwise has every other country's problems, and then some D:
Well, good luck with your Uni!

palsch

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Re: An Essay on Male Suicide
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2012, 05:31:18 pm »

I can't argue for the rest of the world, but when it comes to earning jobs, women in the UK have begun earning more than men, and actually have preference when it comes to hiring over men, as opposed to just half a decade ago, when what you mentioned was the norm.
Sorry, but that was a very narrow set of figures. I believe that her figures came from women working in higher education (that was how they were reported at the time, but I can't find the IOP email on the matter now and they don't seem to have ever been published, but the figures seem to make sense to me knowing the pay ranges and trends in higher education). There are similar numbers suggesting the gap is closed for middle management in that age range. However, the main pay gap that exists is in lower paid jobs and higher level executives.

The latest official figures do show an overall shrinking of the average pay gap, but only a slim one. For full time workers, from 10.1% in April 2010 to 9.1% in April 2011. Part time workers actually showed an increase from 4.3% to 5.6%, although some of that will be due to the recession. Overall that averages out to a drop from 19.8% to 19.5% for the average employee (more women are in part time work, so the average female wage is dragged down considerably by part time wages being lower than full time).

The forecasts I've seen suggest that women are going to do worse in this years figures. The overall shift towards poorer and poorer paying part time jobs has continued while female heavy occupations have been particularly hard hit by the austerity policies and recessionary job cuts. The numbers I've seen suggest that two thirds of those who became unemployed in the final months of 2011 were women. That increased female unemployment may well help keep down any increase in the gap as they are counted out of the figures.
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