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[Kilroy the Grand]

exactly what it says on the tin

[Euld]

Before I watch: you might want to post in the Progressive Thread if you have other links related to this thread and the other thread you made.

After I watched: it's really weird hearing about this issue again after I came out of the closet and turned liberal o_O  I guess I don't worry about women anymore and wonder why men tear themselves up over their women so much.  From what I've seen, women really seem to hold a lot of power in relationships these days.  One male friend of mine was trying to meet up with a girl he liked, they both showed up at the right place at the right time, but they couldn't find each other because the place was crowded.  Guess who got the blame?  She blamed him for standing him up and he had to apologize for it.  It was nobody's fault, but somehow it was his fault. 

It's funny when a woman slaps a man, it's horrifying when a man slaps a woman.  My mother throws all sorts of childish fits whenever she pleases and my dad just has to watch her flip out and wait.

[Kilroy the Grand]

Euld, get used to it. You are a Privileged White Male. You have the privilege to be expendable and worthless, the privilege to give a woman your seat, to defend them, to be accused of rape, to pay for everything.

[Agdune]

I can't watch the video just now, but have often come across arguments about gender inequality and actually find some very interesting. While there are always fuckwits who ruin the image of genuine equality movements (fuck you, mysogynists), there's nonetheless quite alot of interesting moderate viewpoints on the matter once you get past the douchbaggery. Certainly can make for interesting discussion, provided you're careful about your wording (bloody easy to accidently wander into mysogyny and mysandry if you're not paying attention :p ).

I find especially interesting the argument that (specifically the harsher, 2nd wave radical forms of) feminism is responsible for many current issues in male culture - during olden times (thinking pretty much anything up to second or third wave feminism) there were incredibly strict gender roles for both sexes. While intensely horrible for everyone involved by current lefty values (such as mine), they at least had the upside that there were very clear-cut standards and expectations for both sexes. Men behaved this way and were in control of this stuff, women behaved that way and were in control of that. Men didn't do this or this, women didn't do that and that. Even the most ignorant could figure out what the world expected of them.

Then came those forms of feminism which discarded the idea of equality and started angling for what can sometimes be full-on mysandry (think radical feminism, patriachy, basically 'men are shit in every way' style militant feminism which was popular for a little time there in the 80ies/90ies). Female role models have changed from the old models (for the better, don't get me wrong), however an unfortunate side effect of that could be argued to be that males had their old role models destroyed (rightfully) in large part by the success of the sometimes agressive feminist movement but have yet to have their own revolution and forge new socially acceptable role models.

As a working example, think of the often-cited sex inequalities in clothing. Women can wear trousers and suits (tradionally masculine clothing) without too much social censure (assuming you're not in a highly conservative area) and still be free to wear feminine clothing with all the accessorising they want. Men cannot wear dresses and other feminine without being derided as deviant freaks, according to mainstream social norms we're basically stuck in fucking jeans, t-shirts and jackets our whole lives.

Important to note here that it's not feminists ensuring men can't wear dresses though, as might seem to be my gist, but that the feminist movement managed to destroy the old female stereotypes and (almost) destroy male ones, but then only created new social roles for women; men are still left with a barely-working and confused social identity, leading to all sorts of problems that are specific to males in western society. It often feels as though you can't live up to the social expectations of being an "average male" without either being a shallow mysoginistic prick, or alienated from the mainstream (thus providing the connection to male suicide, depression, etc.). There's just a confused mish-mash of incompatable values and half-assed attempts at getting the old stereotypes to keep working in the modern world. Anything else is not impossible (obviously) but it does come under heavy scrutiny, (most importantly) sometimes heavier than would be the case for female counterparts or analoges. comparativley speaking, no-one bats an eye when feminine males get assaulted, but it's often somewhat more of an issue when either masculine or feminine women get assaulted. (of course, specific variables should be taken into account, but it's hard to think of many examples and comparisons that don't involve some pretty complex technicalities and details)

I've not really researched it (I took gender studies as an elective last year, but was disapointed that the unit coordinator was basically just Germain Greer Jr. and every single reading and lecture was just another rambling article about sacred vaginas and how men want to destroy them with their hairy ape-like penises. One of the least balanced courses I've ever done) but it's an interesting topic nonetheless.

...And before anyone asks, no I don't consider myself an average male. I actually really hate masculine traits and never really got along with other males. Stephen Fry is about the only male I'd consider to be any sort of role model, and even he's got his fair share of issues.

[moocowmoo]

Would be nice if you add some discussion on it. I watched it and thought it was interesting. One issue that really bugs me is how male genital mutilation is still done widescale in the US, but people are horrified by female genital mutilation. But yeah there is a lot of misandry nowadays, and it's taboo to speak up about it.

[moocowmoo]

Good post Agdune, interesting points.

Then came those forms of feminism which discarded the idea of equality and started angling for what can sometimes be full-on mysandry (think radical feminism, patriachy, basically 'men are shit in every way' style militant feminism which was popular for a little time there in the 80ies/90ies). Female role models have changed from the old models (for the better, don't get me wrong), however an unfortunate side effect of that could be argued to be that males had their old role models destroyed (rightfully) in large part by the success of the sometimes agressive feminist movement but have yet to have their own revolution and forge new socially acceptable role models.

Why is it "rightful" to have the old male role models destroyed? I think the stuff that's taken their place is even worse. Same thing with female role models. The former have become self hating and weak, and the latter selfish and aggressive.

[kaijyuu]

Then came those forms of feminism which discarded the idea of equality and started angling for what can sometimes be full-on mysandry (think radical feminism, patriachy, basically 'men are shit in every way' style militant feminism which was popular for a little time there in the 80ies/90ies). Female role models have changed from the old models (for the better, don't get me wrong), however an unfortunate side effect of that could be argued to be that males had their old role models destroyed (rightfully) in large part by the success of the sometimes agressive feminist movement but have yet to have their own revolution and forge new socially acceptable role models.

Why is it "rightful" to have the old male role models destroyed? I think the stuff that's taken their place is even worse. Same thing with female role models. The former have become self hating and weak, and the latter selfish and aggressive.

Well first off we shouldn't over simplify into singular "role models" that are the ideal. There are aspects of the old role models that are good, and aspects that are bad. Same for the popular role models of today. So yes, some parts should be destroyed; namely violent, destructive, and manipulative aspects.

And while we're talking about role models, I don't really like the concept of "male" role models and "female" role models. I don't see masculinity and femininity to be things you need to be trained in. Those are things you define for yourself. If there's role modeling to be done, it's stuff that can be equally applied to both genders (such as not forcing yourself into gender stereotypes to be more "normal").





Anywho, my opinion on the whole thing is reeeeal simple: Fuck double standards, no matter who they're directed to. Fuck being expected to conform to stereotypes.
Misandry and misogyny are exactly the same thing in my eyes: from a conceptual standpoint, they have exactly the same weight and are just as despicable. The only difference is who they're directed to.

[ChairmanPoo]

No offense but this is the... fourth? thread you've begun on the subject of "male oppression" and I'm beggining to perceive an agenda

[Agdune]

I think the stuff that's taken their place is even worse. Same thing with female role models. The former have become self hating and weak, and the latter selfish and aggressive.

To put it in its simplest terms possible using your terms; because the old male role models were selfish and aggressive, the old female role models were self hating and weak. Thinking there's very much of use for modern society in those old ideals won't yeild much in the way of positive social advancement, they were restrictive, promoted knee-jerk judgemental values that attacked anything that wasn't completely generic in thought, behaviour and appearance. Third wave feminism at least has the advantage of allowing some modicum of diversity of behaviour and lifestyle and moved away from old fashioned 'behave exactly in THIS manner because it's best' ideas which characterised the period referred to in sociological circles as "solid modernity" (that being the period between roughly 1870-1980).

I wouldn't at all agree that the current mainstream social models of behaviour can be characterised as selfish and aggressive for women, self-hating and weak for men. There are plenty of aggressive fuckwits in both male and female sub-cultures, but the 'average' model of acceptable social behaviour does not encourage overt aggression or self-hating in any population.

(I can't do this without refering to alot of sociological key phrases, but I'll try to keep it to a minimum. Unfortunately the biggest thing about sociology is that most of the ideas are interconnected and impossible to express accurately without roughly a billion words.)

The good thing about third wave feminism is that it relies heavily on the principle of liquid modernity. Liquid modernity is probably best explained as being what we're all living in now. It's different to previous forms of our modern society where there were explicit rules and expectations with mass movements and beliefs (like the 50ies). That older form is Solid Modernity, of which second wave feminism is a great example (all men are this way, all women are this way, everyone should do this one thing because it's the best). Liquid modernity is more subjective and de-centralised than the older forms of modernity and as a result can be pretty hard to get your head around sometimes - there's no finite 'best' answers anymore, everything is dependant on everything else and there can be roughly 30 quadrillion different viewpoints all co-existing together under the umbrella of 'liquid modernity' without anyone knowing what's what and everyone having different ideas based on whatever subjective interpretation of whatever source they happen to pay attention to.

Essentially, third-wave feminism promotes chosing your own values and sources. You want to be a girly girl? Want to be a tough corporate woman? Want to be a motherly housewife? Want to be a butch lesbian? Under basic third-wave feminist principles, all those ideas are fine and dandy; girl power! Chose your own destiny!

I don't get the feeling it applies so much to males. We have a little spillover from general liquid modernity principles (y'know, do what you want, chose your own values etc.) but when it comes to social acceptability of behaviour, dress or other things, it really still seems that men are subject to more conservative, centralised societal values than women. To use it again; A woman wearing jeans or cargopants in public is fine. A man wearing a skirt in public would at the very least face strong social pressure to not do that again, and in certain regions could even face legal trouble as a result.
(edit: I'm just using this as a historical example. 120 years ago a woman would also face legal trouble if wearing pants in public in the exact same way. As a society we've managed to stop one from being taboo, but not the other).
The sex segregations that can happen in sports are more pronounced (still very segregated, I mean) however even there you can see a fair few double-standards. The social stigma for women choosing to play contact sports is arguably less than the stigma for males who refuse to play contact sports and would rather sit it out.

They're small differences, but if you have problems conforming or feel compelled to conform when you don't want to, they're cumulative differences and can start being big issues. "my choices are being a shallow fuckwit to fit in or being a pariah for not being a shallow fuckwit" starts being a problem when it's something you face every single day of your life.

Again, I'm not saying women don't face major social issues along the same vein. Third wave feminism provides only a small buffer against stupid fuckwits and social isolation. I'm just trying to illustrate that there actually is a reason to think that gender inequality is a two-way thing and needs to be looked at critically. It's just that there's already plenty of skilled and intelligent advocates for women's rights and getting rid of outdated female values... but finding constructive and inclusive arguments for overturning outdated male values is fairly rare.

[Loud Whispers]

If that's true... Damn. Time to do some research.

[Glowcat]

This is one of the most insane ranting videos I've seen in a long time. Not like I'd expect anything else from somebody who calls themselves "TheHappyMisogynist". He threw Obama-bashing in for good measure to sake the thirst of (probably fellow) right-wing nutters, and never came out with a solid argument about anything. Just a lot of indignation and rage at "teh Evil Misandrist Feminist Bitches". MEN ARE LOVING! THE EVIL PSYCHOLOGISTS ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE US WOMEN LOVE TOO MUCH! CHIVALRY AND LIFE BOATS! WE MUST TEACH MEN TO NOT BE CONTROLLED BY THE EVIL WIMMENZ! This dude needs to get out of his little insane world and quit finding arbitrary reasons to fuel his hatred of women.

[Agdune]

Hooookay, listened to the essay. This is what I meant when I said it's easy to wander into misogyny or misandry. I can somewhat appreciate the guy's core message (don't listen to people who say all men are evil), but he seems to be unable to stop that turning into "fuck those bitch feminists!" repeatedly.

I hate radical feminism as much as any sane person (radical feminism being a specific category of feminist ideology; the militant branch who DO think all men are evil and are serious when they say they want genetic engineering to make men obsolete so that all men can be euthanised without the species dying) but honestly, you have to get some perspective and realise that they're just another bunch of fuckwits - their unrealistic and aggressive ideas don't mean that all feminists are penis-hating banshees. They're an extreme minority of the movement and are no more representative of feminism than that guy you met in the street who said god was coming to kill all the chickens because they ate a dragon's soul.

Yes, as per the theory I talked about before, feminism may well have played a role in destroying old values, but it's not to blame for the inability of modern male subcultures to move on and create new ones. Attacking feminism on the basis that it got big by pointing out how traditional male culture was crap is completely missing the point. Traditional male culture WAS crap and so was traditional female culture. One of those (feminism) has moved on a little bit, the other is seemingly stuck in a self-feeding loop of low self esteem and defensive over-reaction. The inability to move on and collectively create a new workable social concept of men that doesn't revolve around being a shallow douche is the problem, not the fact that women want equality.

[Loud Whispers]

-snip-

I really didn't hear a lot of that... Although I do agree, it would not be a sound basis for an argument. But that fact of the matter still stands is that gender equality doesn't exist, and it's largely an ignored issue. Is it just one side over the other? Nope. But it's still an inequality.
To not go off topic though, that video was about the problem that pretty much all occasions where men are abused, it is laughed at.

[LordSlowpoke]

Oh boy, this thread. I'll go ahead and second this:

No offense but this is the... fourth? thread you've begun on the subject of "male oppression" and I'm beggining to perceive an agenda

And now I'll throw my own three cents in, since I didn't do so in the last threads.

The video? It's a rant. Someone probably got mad (or madder than usual), grabbed a microphone off we go. While there seems to be a point here, he had a rather hard time not turning it into misogyny outright. And Obama... okay, I won't bother. I know as much about American politics as lurking this forum has told me and I daren't comment.

But fellas, let me put it bluntly - you know segregation? By sex, or race, or even religion? It's all getting reversed. And the concept of equality is a nice one, but to put it in practice is impossible unless you grab just about every person on the planet and break their nature into little pieces then glue it back together. Any attempt to make it happen will end up with the group trying it (I'll dare say it's the "white male" here) being abused by the ones they handed power away to. But then, I still find myself in favor of the whole change... but it may be because I'm used to it already.

Fakeedit: I managed to write this slowly enough for two people to post before me. That's nice.

[Glowcat]

-snip-

I really didn't hear a lot of that...

Then you weren't listening.

He goes on about the virtues and bravery of men willing to sacrifice for those they love. He also complains that there still exists a system of chivalry which places value on saving women first and that it tells men their lives are worthless. Contradictory much? If he had a real point he wouldn't have gone all over the place and ended up with an argument that can be summed up as: "Men Good. Feminist Bitches Bad. Poor Us!".

Nothing he ranted about was related to feminism and he just had to throw it in there because like all MRAs he's more interested in attacking women than helping men. He uses a tone of voice that masks his anger but it's right there in his words. He blames women (or the "Misandrist Society") for men not being able to handle their relationships? Why? The men who feel trapped aren't the victims here and they're certainly not trapped by a woman. There isn't much more to say besides that he's spreading misogyny and tapping into the power of victimization fantasy to fuel his rhetoric.