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Author Topic: Azrael300's science on seed's  (Read 8364 times)

azrael300

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Azrael300's science on seed's
« on: May 18, 2012, 08:51:26 pm »

so here il show you my 1 min research on seeds and i will add more over time.

i had masterwork mod

seed digits
-
first digit=
second=
third=
fourth=
fifth=
sixth=
seventh=
-
my list of seeds i did in research
-
0=sea one corner mountain on the other
00=same as above but rotated
1
11= mountain in a corner and ocean on the left
111=the mountain and the sea is on each other side and angle is a bit changed
allot of 1's= seems that sea and ocean is always on each other side ..... any number of 1's
12345678910123456789=tower and the end of humans
-
blank(unknown what or when i will add something on this part)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 09:29:11 pm by azrael300 »
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 09:00:10 pm »

I think the seeds are just used as a base for the random number generation of everything.
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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2012, 09:32:30 am »

I think the seeds are just used as a base for the random number generation of everything.
This is correct - the seed simply determines what sequence of random numbers the game will generate for certain tasks.
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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2012, 10:26:31 am »

I think the seeds are just used as a base for the random number generation of everything.
This is correct - the seed simply determines what sequence of random numbers the game will generate for certain tasks.
That feel you get when you realize that software can't generate randomness, so you need to base your calculations on a number which will always generate the same array of results, in the same order...

I'd call software-generated randoms "the Santa Claus of coding". Once you realize it was an integer value all along, a little part of you dies inside :(
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i2amroy

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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2012, 03:23:38 pm »

I'd call software-generated randoms "the Santa Claus of coding". Once you realize it was an integer value all along, a little part of you dies inside :(
You can get mighty close to randomness though by incorporating changing variables. When you have several functions that change based on your time, location, and current internet speed and then you have another function based on all of those that picks which of the several functions you use as a seed, you can get a pseudo-random number that is nigh-impossible to replicate.

In truth probably the closest you could get to an actual random number would be something that outputs a number based on the number of atoms in a sample that underwent nuclear decay in a given time period. Since as far as we know that is truly random, so unless there is something that science doesn't know that governs nuclear decay (possible, though not currently probable to our best knowledge), then that would work to generate a "true" random number.
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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 02:51:23 am »

In truth probably the closest you could get to an actual random number would be something that outputs a number based on the number of atoms in a sample that underwent nuclear decay in a given time period. Since as far as we know that is truly random, so unless there is something that science doesn't know that governs nuclear decay (possible, though not currently probable to our best knowledge), then that would work to generate a "true" random number.

Still doesn't change the fact that something like 'random' is not possible if you got only 0 and 1 as state. It's amazing that the issue of getting pure random numbers cannot be solved by software solutions. No matter what you do. It's always repeatable.
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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 03:01:08 am »

In truth probably the closest you could get to an actual random number would be something that outputs a number based on the number of atoms in a sample that underwent nuclear decay in a given time period. Since as far as we know that is truly random, so unless there is something that science doesn't know that governs nuclear decay (possible, though not currently probable to our best knowledge), then that would work to generate a "true" random number.

Still doesn't change the fact that something like 'random' is not possible if you got only 0 and 1 as state. It's amazing that the issue of getting pure random numbers cannot be solved by software solutions. No matter what you do. It's always repeatable.
Quantum computing is your salvation. Quantum computers are not determinative, so inputting the same command twice can have different results.
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Durin Stronginthearm

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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2012, 08:23:56 am »

In truth probably the closest you could get to an actual random number would be something that outputs a number based on the number of atoms in a sample that underwent nuclear decay in a given time period. Since as far as we know that is truly random, so unless there is something that science doesn't know that governs nuclear decay (possible, though not currently probable to our best knowledge), then that would work to generate a "true" random number.

Still doesn't change the fact that something like 'random' is not possible if you got only 0 and 1 as state.

A (fair) coin flip only has two states, but is random.
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Supercharazad

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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2012, 10:42:01 am »

Wrong. A coin is more likely to land on the side that was facing down down you flipped it.

It's also more likely to land on heads, because the head is normally heavier.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2012, 11:27:36 am »

But, see, the thing is, you almost never need a truly random number for anything. You just need one that's random enough. For most real-life applications where you have two choices, for example, a coin flip is random enough.
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azrael300

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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2012, 01:08:02 pm »

Wrong. A coin is more likely to land on the side that was facing down down you flipped it.

It's also more likely to land on heads, because the head is normally heavier.
then paint each other side with the same amount of mass of paint and 1 red and 1 green.and have a machine flip a coin when the coin's red and green is not facing up or down and go to a alternate reality and theirs always a flat ground and always have no air above it and gravity is always the same if you dont change your mass whenever you stand on the ground or fly, then flip a coin and then it would still not be always random.unless the reality the robot is in has a law in physics saying that fliping a coin is always random.
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Jeoshua

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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2012, 01:08:50 pm »

Wrong. A coin is more likely to land on the side that was facing down down you flipped it.

It's also more likely to land on heads, because the head is normally heavier.

Both of these are not true.  The first is, on a trial by trial basis, patently false as the chance of the coin landing on any one of two outcomes is ALWAYS 50:50.  Always.

The results coming up H:H:H is not any more likely or unlike than rolling H:T:T.  It is only when you consider that You're more likely to come up with a mixed set (H:H:T, H:T:H, H:T:T, T:H:H, T:H:T, T:T:H) than you are any one pure set (H:H:H, T:T:T) because there are MORE OPTIONS to throw a mixed set.  Each individual outcome outlined is actually the same probability, but there are 6 mixed sets and only 2 pure sets.

And the head is not heavier than the tails side.  The center of gravity of the whole apparatus is the center of rotation, not the midpoint along the edge.  There is always a 50:50 chance of the coin landing on either side, since the shape of the coin only gives two outcomes and these are chosen by where the rotation of the coin was around it's center of gravity.

hen paint each other side with the same amount of mass of paint and 1 red and 1 green.and have a machine flip a coin when the coin's red and green is not facing up or down and go to a alternate reality and theirs always a flat ground and always have no air above it and gravity is always the same if you dont change your mass whenever you stand on the ground or fly, then flip a coin and then it would still not be always random.unless the reality the robot is in has a law in physics saying that fliping a coin is always random.

A coin flip is not specifically a "random" event, but a "chaotic" event.  The act of flipping a coin is controlled by many very small variables, each one more specific than the last, which influence the final outcome more greatly than their proportion would otherwise indicate.  This is called "sensitive dependance upon initial conditions".

If every single piece of information were to be known about the coin toss, in excrutiating detail, it would be possible to predict the coin toss.  However the amount that data would have to be wrong by in order to change the outcome is exceedingly low, taking that prediction to the realm of the astronomically improbable.



All of this is similar to the random number generators in computers.  The numbers are not truly random, but actually chaotic.  The difference being that in the computer realm, the actual inputs to the chaotic system can be specifically known and replicated, leading to a "seed" that can be used to achieve the same results when used in the same situation.

This is where it gets tricky tho.  Although the random number generator can produce the same number twice by using the same seed in the same circumstance, there are irregularities that can occur when attempting to do this.

Try this little bit of "Science", az.  Take a vanilla game.  Generate a world with Seed "0".  Then add a mod to your game (any mod really, doesn't so much matter).  Then generate a new world with that same seed.

It will be different because the environment has changed.  Each time a random number was generated it produced the same results in sequence, however, it was being placed in different places, throwing the entire sequence into a different light.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 01:27:02 pm by Jeoshua »
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miauw62

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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2012, 01:24:40 pm »

Lets not derail this thread, even tough there is not much discussion to do here.
I'll say it right in your face:

CERTAIN NUMBERS IN CERTAIN PLACES IN SEEDS DONT DO ANYTHING.
Aka, this is useless.
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Jeoshua

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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2012, 01:28:25 pm »

Is it good enough to say "This is Useless"?

Or is it probably better to show what's really going on and explain it, rather than insult the intelligence of the people who have been discussing in this thread?

So yes.  Let's not derail this thread.  Let's crash it into a brick wall, eh?
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Trickman

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Re: Azrael300's science on seed's
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2012, 03:03:10 pm »

A (fair) coin flip only has two states, but is random.
To be fair, a fair coin flip is just random in a practical sense. In Newtonian physics, there is no randomness. The face of the coin pointing up will be determined by the strength you put into the flip.  :-\
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