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[Martin]

I'm getting used to it. I had switched from wood barrels to stone pots as a way to shift from more precious wood to plentiful stone, and the 25% drop rate gets in the way of everything but blocks, as I don't get 4 pots or 4 mechanisms or 4 tables for my one stone. So, I'm finding that I'm using wood for more things than stone, as the block payoff is really nice, but I need to mine 4 stone for one table which is no longer a clear winner vs cutting down one tree.


I'll suggest that it's a good change as each use of wood/stone is a bit more judicious now. More judicious is more fun, IMO.

[Sabreur]

I like it for stone, not so much for ore. As mentioned before, its mostly psychological. It still makes finding platinum less exciting, though.

[NW_Kohaku]

3) I see a psychological aversion to the possibility of getting less than 25% because it's random. Players feeling this want an entirely deterministic mining mini-game, or at least feel 25% is too low for their comfort zone. Well... isn't the philosophy of Dwarf Fortress to go by the RNG, roguelike style? The community has adopted the "laugh as your dwarves meet their end in whatever messed up way" policy. It feels counter-intuitive that players can accept losing legendary[1] dwarves with rare 'perfect profiles'[2] to randomness[3], yet throw a tantrum at losing some rocks to randomness. Hmm, well I guess that's a dwarfy attitude in its own way.

Honestly, I tend to see this as an aversion to change, more generally.

As in, losing a legendary is something they've gotten used to, and know how to work around, so they don't complain, because that's just normal.

When something changes, and it forces them to change the old habits they've gotten used to, however, it causes complaints. 

When new people start playing from this version onward, if there is ever any change from the current way things work, there are going to be complaints then, too, just as there were complaints when minerals went from relatively few in 40d to superabundant in early .31 to rare again in later .31, and then there was that worldgen setting that Toady added because of the backlash - the people who were used to 40d materials were fine with seeing the rare materials come back.  The people who had only ever known early .31 and on saw it as some sort of in-game "punishment" that they would lose the ability to make "pyramids of solid gold".

The problem pops up every time there is a discussion about making mechanics more challenging in the game - the "megaproject construction only" crowd will oppose almost any change that will make the "simulationist" and "gamist" players happy because anything that adds more challenge or depth or complexity (in any combination) to the game they just see as a burden in their lego-fort-building program.

[King DZA]

Being the stylish, extravagance-loving bastard I am, I'm really hoping it gets tweaked a bit more before the bugfixing is done.

[Girlinhat]

I'd just like to add another 2 pence to this.  Basically the same as I said back when minerals became scarce suddenly.

Dwarf up.

You can't embark and immediately build a large stone tower?  Get some woodcutters and build a wooden shack to cover your mine entrance and then dig down and get some blocks.  Can't adorn your rooms with 30x fine stone tables?  Get wooden tables.  Stone pots too expensive now?  We've still got wooden barrels!

What's happening here is that resource scarcity is happening.  We can all agree (yes, everyone) that resources are absurdly abundant.  In .06 you could dig out a bedroom, take the junk rock into crafts, and buy out a caravan with shist mugs.  Now stone is a resource that you actually have to wonder about.  This is a fantastic change.  Serrated Steel Disks are super expensive to sell, but now they take more bars to make and resources are becoming more scarce.

This is a good thing.  This is what Dwarf Fortress needs.

If you have one cluster of magnetite you can arm your whole militia.  I hope that gets nerfed as well.  As it stands, I genned a new world and within two years I had a 10 strong militia in full iron and enough constructed to funnel enemies into a trap corridor to mow down.  Dwarf Fortress is easy - that's right I said it.  We're always looking for challenges, there's always an active thread on how to make things more interesting or more difficult.  Well, Toady has posted a challenge for us now: Play Vanilla.

Plant your kitten leather helm firmly on your head, grasp your pick firmly with both hands, Dwarf up, and Strike the damn Earth.

[herrbdog]

i love the droprates. less clutter and tgere is still waaaaay more than enough stone if you need it. blocks solve the construction issues. minerals? for me, since the rarity setting became available, i gen worlds only with 100,000 (absolute minimum minerals), but once the goblinite starts flowing i have plenty of iron (and steel if i've flux). still easy peasy.

yeah. dwarf up.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I sure think it's silly that you're all under the impression that a Legendary Miner should be less skilled at extracting valuable minerals than a novice.

[vertinox]

I don't know. I think clutter added an aspect to gameplay that the whole point of wheelbarrows and minecarts were supposed to add to. Now that there is 75% less stone, the need for a minecart system is reduced.

[Putnam]

I sure think it's silly that you're all under the impression that a Legendary Miner should be less skilled at extracting valuable minerals than a novice.

Wherever did anyone say that?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I sure think it's silly that you're all under the impression that a Legendary Miner should be less skilled at extracting valuable minerals than a novice.

Wherever did anyone say that?

Read the previous 15 or so posts and tell me that isn't the consensus.

[Putnam]

All I really see is that people agree that they should be equally as good, if speedier...

[Seriyu]

Gotta say, I'm enjoying it. Makes suiting up your dwarves more difficult (if you're mining the ore), Expensive (importing the ore), or risky (if you go the adamantine mining route). On top of this this has the benefit of making caravans more useful in general, where previously they were more OH GOD STRANGE MOOD I DON'T HAVE ANY SILK QUICK BUY SOME, rather then actual valuable things you looked forward to, at least on your standard shallow metal, flux site.

It's making the game more difficult to succeed at, which I am all for. It was ridiculously easy to just mine out a ton of ore, forge it up into serrated disks, and remelt them until you have a legendary weaponsmith because hey you've got six hundred other iron bars back there right? I'm also loving that I don't have to dedicate 3/4th's of the fortress to ferrying all of the stone around.

With all that said I wouldn't object to knocking up the mine out rate of small cluster ores like plat a smidge. It does ruin the fun of finding it when you realize you're probably not going to get anything out of it anyway.

[Putnam]

Adamantine still drops 100%, I'm pretty sure >_>

[Seriyu]

Risky as in you might crack the tube open

[Mictlantecuhtli]

All I really see is that people agree that they should be equally as good, if speedier...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now, do some focused re-reading and tell me who, other than;

I'm not a fan either. 25% drop with 4x times as many bars sounds fine in theory, but I feel like the negative feeling of not getting 25% outweighs the positive feeling from getting more than 25%. Not only that, Miner skill levels are worthless now.

You know what would be great? If for each level of skill a Miner had, it tacked on X% additional chance to succesfully mine an ore. +1% seems a little low, because at Legendary+5 you'd still only have 45%. Maybe +2%? 65% sounds reasonable to me, especially given the whole 4 bars deal.

If that's not possible, then Toady needs to raise the flat ore drop rate to 50%, final answer.

is arguing that Legendary miners should be better at excavating valuable minerals from the earth they are supposedly "Legendary" at mining. Because I sure don't see much agreement on the subject even though that honestly is what makes sense.

To be clear: Economic rocks and non-ore stones should stay the same. Blocks fix the lack of building materials and rocks are a way to quickly make most other goods for a cheaper price since rock is abundant. It makes sense that these miners aren't trying their damnedest to keep these stones in tact, but why would any self respecting Dwarf treat a vein of Hemetite the same as diorite, or whatever? I tell you they wouldn't, and shouldn't.