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[dae666]

I've been experimenting with carts just as everyone does, and I noticed that, with the carts and all, the scales have tipped in favour of horizontal, rather than vertical, plans for workshops and stockpiles.

I mean, it used to be much more efficient to use vertical plans, minimising hauling: 2x2 stairways with different workshop levels for cloth, stone, wood, forges, and if you have enough levels (e.g. on a volcano slope) with their own stockpiles on the above level: 8 levels of workshops, excluding farms, etc.

Now however, not so much. Carts travel crazy fast and efficiently on a single level. But it's tricky to use ramps, which makes spiral ramps that span multiple levels even more difficult to design and handle. And dangerous too if not planned well. Plus if you need multiple spiral ramps (which you will), it takes up a whole lot of space.

What do you think?

[BTW, this is my first post here. I've been reading the forums for some time and thought it's time to get in dialogue. Hello world. You're a great crowd.]

[Girlinhat]

Flat plans favor cart travel, though there is sure to be a system for single-spiral and resource distribution.  Namely, I'm thinking that all carts come up/down the spiral and go to a single mass stockpile, which then uses wheelbarrows/more carts to dole the items out to different stockpiles and workshops.  Or, more likely, a single quantum stockpile which they then pick through and move about.  Carts can return down the spiral by falling through the hollow center.

[FearfulJesuit]

Has anyone tested whether the highest speed a cart can go down a ramp will send it down a distance faster than just dropping it?

[Socializator]

I am not that sure that influence will be that large though. Although I had to admit I thought it will be of major impact when it was announced. But since dwarfs don’t use them “spontaneously” and you have to define each way quite rigorously, actual usage has to be more planned/micromanaged. To me personally this seems to be worth only for very few civilian applications (weaponization now aside). Most of the stockpiles in my fortresses are already close to the workshops, so only real hauling is of raw materials. Wood, ores, perhaps fish, magma. Since stone blocks can be hauled in bins, bothering with tracks and routes is not really worth for medium sized projects as well. Only the true megaproject will probably appreciate the tracks. I am personally somewhat in doubt about ores hauling, since the sources tend to be somewhat scattered, but I didn’t give it a real try yet. Forges tend to be quite detached tho (down at bottom), so minecarts will be probably quite usefull for that.
To me it appears as no real change to fortress design, well unless you are planning to use the quantum dumping. So far it looks like few additional tracks reaching for raw materials stockpiles, but the industry chain afterwards is rather unaffected.
Perhaps the possibility of assigning particular stockpiles to given workshops is actually of similar impact as minecarts itselfs.

But yep, I am glad you have started civilian aspects of minecarts thread

[Urist Da Vinci]

A wood collection rail system on the surface or in a cavern could increase the safety of woodcutting by allowing you to have fewer wood haulers, while keeping a fast rate of collection. The cutter/haulers go out, chop some trees, load them into a nearby collection point, and kick the cart back to the fort. Otherwise, each log has to be walked in by itself, and then the hauler has to walk back out. Minecarts reduce total walking distance (and time) for the operation.

[Socializator]

A wood collection rail system on the surface or in a cavern could increase the safety of woodcutting by allowing you to have fewer wood haulers, while keeping a fast rate of collection. The cutter/haulers go out, chop some trees, load them into a nearby collection point, and kick the cart back to the fort. Otherwise, each log has to be walked in by itself, and then the hauler has to walk back out. Minecarts reduce total walking distance (and time) for the operation.

And same for stone and ores... but I am not sure that this changes the fortress layouts much. The "core" fortress will be the same + 1 endstation. Initially I thought that change will be much bigger.

[King Mir]

I'm planning on having a design like this. Big hallway with stairs in the north. Then a row of workshops. Then a cart depot in the south. Cart depot needs to be able to expand, because it's hard to make two roller powered carts use the same track when they have different destinations. And it needs to be away from the central staircase so dwarves don't walk on it.

[dae666]

unless you are planning to use the quantum dumping

Call me a purist, but I still feel that quantum stockpiling is somewhat abusive. Especially since we don't even have so much rock to haul any more.

A wood collection rail system on the surface

I agree. Someone in the "how to minecart" topic was suggesting the use of a pressure plate, a retracting bridge and a chute to carpenter's. Which makes a lot of sense.

The "core" fortress will be the same

Except for dining and bedrooms, I still think carts favour horizontal plans. Two things from the top of my head: (1) Carrying lead bins to and from the depot (full of stone crafts one way, cloth and leather the other) (2) Collecting and dumping goblinite. These can take less time with some clever planning. Though I haven't yet tried to implement either.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if it'd be worth it, as you say, if it takes so much time and effort to plan anyways.

[King Mir]

Flat plans favor cart travel, though there is sure to be a system for single-spiral and resource distribution.  Namely, I'm thinking that all carts come up/down the spiral and go to a single mass stockpile, which then uses wheelbarrows/more carts to dole the items out to different stockpiles and workshops.  Or, more likely, a single quantum stockpile which they then pick through and move about.  Carts can return down the spiral by falling through the hollow center.

You can have a single spiral as long as it's not automated; I'm building one now. One track for going up, one for going down. You can have routes between any floors you want this way.