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Did you have fun with this?

Yes
- 4 (14.3%)
No
- 1 (3.6%)
It was fun for a long time but towards the end it just started to drag
- 6 (21.4%)
I wish I could have joined in.
- 17 (60.7%)

Total Members Voted: 28


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Author Topic: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued... FULL DISCLOSURE  (Read 265630 times)

WillowLuman

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2670 on: June 26, 2012, 07:16:17 pm »

-snip-
[Magic doesn't usually have a specific energy, or need physics things like having 16 magicjoules of magic energy to do 16 joules of work. However, in the case of a machine-mind trying to comprehend magic, it would make sense for it to resolve itself into quantifiable forms in his perspective. Then again, if he really is an exact duplicate of you, then he should be able to think in abstract concepts and thus comprehend magic normally.

Somehow I don't think it would be possible to generate magic with an electric generator or convert current to magical energy. Maybe if you built some kind of absorber with something magic as a component, then put it near magical sources that affected their environment in some way.]

ninja'd by Wierd.
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Gizogin

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2671 on: June 26, 2012, 07:43:55 pm »

-snip-
[Magic doesn't usually have a specific energy, or need physics things like having 16 magicjoules of magic energy to do 16 joules of work. However, in the case of a machine-mind trying to comprehend magic, it would make sense for it to resolve itself into quantifiable forms in his perspective. Then again, if he really is an exact duplicate of you, then he should be able to think in abstract concepts and thus comprehend magic normally.

Somehow I don't think it would be possible to generate magic with an electric generator or convert current to magical energy. Maybe if you built some kind of absorber with something magic as a component, then put it near magical sources that affected their environment in some way.]

ninja'd by Wierd.

[I guess I've always thought of magic less abstractly than that.  To my mind, it's just another set of rules, though they might not always make sense to non-practitioners.

Gizogin didn't build Gizo X to be an exact duplicate of himself; he intended Gizo X to be better, and to serve as an immortal copy of his mind.  Gizo X has all of Gizogin's memories and personality, but his thought process is slightly different.  It's faster, for one, and more logical.]
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wierd

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2672 on: June 26, 2012, 07:46:23 pm »

Depends on the philosophy behind his magic.

Some forms of magic are simply there, waiting to be tapped, such as via sympathetic magic. In which case, he could build something mechanical, driven by normally mundane forces, that is a simulacrum of a natural process associated with magic. (Say, a plasma discharge tube, if the locals believe that the aurora borealis improves magical potency.) In which case, the magic being absorbed is second hand, created by the belief of the local practitioners, but induced artificially through science.  In a world where magic has measurably real effects, you can create experiments to measure the thresholds of those effects, measuring all mundane inputs, measuring the energy of the output effect, and extrapolating the energy difference as the magical component.  In this way he could quantify magical expenditure, even if his numbers only apply to himself. 

The issue that you seem to be having problems with is that magic is ultimately "created" throu 3 unquantifiable sources:  faith. Belief. Willpower.

In the case of gizo-x, he has none of those himself, excepting perhaps a loose definition of willpower.  He doesn't have faith, because faith is the trust in thruthfulness of a relationship without evidence. He doesn't really have belief, because he doesn't have illogical convictions.  He might be said to have willpower, because he doesn't suffer mental fatigue, and is self directing.


His magic is "second hand", in that it relies on the belief other practitioners have that a certain invokation or process will yeild a magical result, which can be shown to be experimentally interesting. He can then perform said ritual, and because others believe it will work, their belief powers the spell. He still has to control that second hand magic though.

It sounds like his G-core power collector absorbs this energy, and is built on borrowed concepts, which is why it works.

His magic could be negated if a sufficiently cynical bastard absolutely refuses to believe he could do magic is present when he tries.

That would change if weird created a "dark core" for him though. It would not have been created by gizo-x, and relies on the will, belief, and faith of my char, and his (very) dificult to deny divine hotline powers.  A way weird could give gizo-x such super powers would be say, a mechanical table-flip controlled programmable sigil glyph, tied directly to gizo-x's processing system. Gizo couold manipulate the (absurdly powerful) sympathetic magic construct weird made for him, by controlling the rotation of the concentric rings that the programmable power circle is comprised of, and the tablet flipping controls to alter what glyphs are shown in the circle, and perhaps any other programmable features, like lines, etc. Given a sufficiently in-depth education on the meanings of such reorientations and representations, weird could turn gizo-x into a mechanical "almost necromancer." Gizo-x doesn't have a soul, and therefore couldn't control dead bodies. He could tap all the chaotic magical energy, and use the sigil controller to direct it into other ways though.

He and weird would have to collaborate on that though.

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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2673 on: June 26, 2012, 07:48:00 pm »

-snip-
[Magic doesn't usually have a specific energy, or need physics things like having 16 magicjoules of magic energy to do 16 joules of work. However, in the case of a machine-mind trying to comprehend magic, it would make sense for it to resolve itself into quantifiable forms in his perspective. Then again, if he really is an exact duplicate of you, then he should be able to think in abstract concepts and thus comprehend magic normally.

Somehow I don't think it would be possible to generate magic with an electric generator or convert current to magical energy. Maybe if you built some kind of absorber with something magic as a component, then put it near magical sources that affected their environment in some way.]

ninja'd by Wierd.

[I guess I've always thought of magic less abstractly than that.  To my mind, it's just another set of rules, though they might not always make sense to non-practitioners.

Gizogin didn't build Gizo X to be an exact duplicate of himself; he intended Gizo X to be better, and to serve as an immortal copy of his mind.  Gizo X has all of Gizogin's memories and personality, but his thought process is slightly different.  It's faster, for one, and more logical.]

Until it comes into contact with water that enters the CPU or whatever you are using to have a copy of your mind.

Suggest leaving the meta.

I'll end it with this statement: we have so many different types of magic running each on its own set of rules, don't worry about the type he is using.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 07:49:45 pm by Zanzetkuken The Great »
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WillowLuman

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2674 on: June 26, 2012, 08:02:40 pm »

If does possess a more mechanical mind, it would make sense for abstract concepts to manifest as concrete numbers. I would argue that he does posses willpower, being autonomous, it's just that if neither he nor Gizogin believe electricity to be magical, it couldn't be directly converted from current to spell. He would have to get the energy from other people's magic, such as the background effects in areas of magical influence, magical beings, or magical actions.

The way I see it, there's basically two categories of magic that the others fall into; breaking the rules or bending them. Some magic is substituting a different set of rules for the physical ones; this causes things like an input having more than one output or decrease / increase of the total physical energy/mass of the universe. Bending the rules would be moving things around in ways that aren't normally possible, but still balance out at the end. You might create mass, but an exactly equivalent amount is destroyed. You could move heat from a cold area to a hot one, but the amount of heat in the system of you, the cold, and the hot area would be the same. This is the kind of magic that would probably be more workable by an android.
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2675 on: June 26, 2012, 08:11:38 pm »

Ah, that's a better explanation than mine.

'Bout how long till the time-skip?  I am effectively locked for the one approaching, and the next one.  I WILL NOT have the war last longer than one month.  (that is assuming that each time-skip will be two weeks.)
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Eric Blank

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2676 on: June 26, 2012, 08:12:59 pm »

I'll end it with this statement: we have so many different types of magic running each on its own set of rules, don't worry about the type he is using.

Indeed.

Although, another way magic could be quantifiable for a given individual or object is to say that "X has Y hard-cap on the amount of change they are able to impart on the universe, enforced by Z entity/rule." Thus, magic is energy or potential energy, and a given individual has a certain limit to how much change they can cause before they are required by the entity/rule to cease. This could be a deity/demon, rewarding faithful worship (or in any old pantheon, just doing something related to their sphere that pleases them) with more freedoms in the mortal world, or an non-conscious force that permits Y energy buildup/second at a baseline to all individuals, with some variation depending on how knowledgable they are about how to exploit this force, or the given laws of physics.

Someone like Wierd who understands basic principals of physics would be astoundingly powerful, just because you'd have the capacity to cause natural processes to finish the job for you. Given a simple telekinesis spell with a good degree of accuracy and range, he would be able to do absolutely anything. You could make your TNT, from a fortified bunker 50 meters away, and never accidentally blow yourself up. You could play with a few select molecules in a target's head, and cause them to flop on the floor, dead as a doorknob. Comparatively, I would be able to figure out how to turn a fire spell into a frost spell, and a light spell into a photon-catcher to dim an area or even bend light to make myself invisible well beyond any of the dragons' battlemage assassins, but I honestly don't understand much about physics.


The concept of magic I've coveted is that magic = normal energy + the ability to remotely manipulate it. You metabolism determines your recharge rate and initial supply, based on the rate of metabolism and the amount of energy currently being used in your system. You'd become tired very rapidly though, and too much use could result in serious health problems. Still, all you'd need to effecitvely have magic IRL is to bend all the fucking rules and implement some means by which the human being can remotely manipulate the world through conscious will, using and transferring their own body's energy to the target to accomplish the task.
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Gizogin

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2677 on: June 26, 2012, 08:29:25 pm »

Someone like Wierd who understands basic principals of physics would be astoundingly powerful, just because you'd have the capacity to cause natural processes to finish the job for you. Given a simple telekinesis spell with a good degree of accuracy and range, he would be able to do absolutely anything. You could make your TNT, from a fortified bunker 50 meters away, and never accidentally blow yourself up. You could play with a few select molecules in a target's head, and cause them to flop on the floor, dead as a doorknob. Comparatively, I would be able to figure out how to turn a fire spell into a frost spell, and a light spell into a photon-catcher to dim an area or even bend light to make myself invisible well beyond any of the dragons' battlemage assassins, but I honestly don't understand much about physics.

[Oh, sure.  I know that with telekinesis and my knowledge of physics I could do a lot.  Hold all the molecules in a pool of water completely still to reduce its temperature to absolute zero, then disturb it slightly to flash-freeze it.  Form miniature black holes by compressing matter (they wouldn't last very long, but still).  Pinch a blood vessel in someone's brain to kill them effortlessly.  Perform completely non-invasive surgery, stitching together tissues and patching bones and organs with a thought.  Fly.  Interrupt the movement of electrons in electric circuits to manipulate computers.  Turn pencils into diamonds.  The possibilities are endless.

Gizo X's magic is bending the rules.  When he coated his workshop door with frost (his first spell), he was just drawing the heat out of water vapor in the air and diffusing it to the surrounding environment.  Interesting note: if you could somehow take the thermal energy released by cooling water vapor at room temperature to ice at zero degrees Celsius and put it back in as kinetic energy, you could have a chunk of ice moving at Mach 7.  Most of that energy comes from condensing the vapor to liquid water.  (Actually, I'm not 100% certain of the math on that one; I did it a while ago when I was bored.  It should check out still.)]
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 08:32:20 pm by Gizogin »
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WillowLuman

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2678 on: June 26, 2012, 08:35:30 pm »

Basically, how much someone can magically change the world is determined by how much everyone else lets them get away with. The reason most mages can't just do telekinesis on someone else's brain is that all entities have a kind of inertia that must be overcome to stop their existence. The person's belief in their own existence prevents them from being snuffed out like a candle by someone else's mind over matter; to kill them, the mage would have to do it indirectly. Instead of just wishing them dead, they would have to actually kill them with a fireball or something. As the seat of the mind, the brain would be particularly resistant to direct manipulation of it's particles.

Ah, that's a better explanation than mine.

'Bout how long till the time-skip?  I am effectively locked for the one approaching, and the next one.  I WILL NOT have the war last longer than one month.  (that is assuming that each time-skip will be two weeks.)

Not long. There is one more thing to accomplish before "Then they worked on tidying up the place for a few weeks."
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 08:37:45 pm by HugoLuman »
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wierd

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2679 on: June 26, 2012, 08:47:23 pm »

As long as it isn't in the same vein as "dread chthulu in his house in r'leygh(sp?) Lies dreaming" type eldritch horror in our basement, I'm down with it, but somebody needs to control my char by remote.  I just got interrupted *again* frm fixing the broken engineering I mentioned earlier. Had to create a manual setup for 8 #30 pilots to be drilled in a part that should have had them drilled during the second operation, but the idiot at the machine skipped it on 4 parts. If this is a sign for how this week is gonna turn out, I am dreading it. Tonight has been pure hell so far.
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WillowLuman

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2680 on: June 26, 2012, 08:57:51 pm »

EDIT due to ninja by Wierd: don't worry, nothing to threaten our lives. If you'll recall I've said that we need time to rebuild before we can survive any large-scale disasters. Just something to move things along.

Corai, settling into his crappy copper throne, was content. It might not look like much, but the chair looked magnificent compared to the rest of the camp. Sometimes it was good to be competent amongst idiots; you quickly wound up in charge. It could be annoying, too, when everyone relied on you, but now was one of the good times. Wait, who was that? He had told everyone to stay within the camp. Why was there a kobold out there, headed this way? Corai squinted. A kobold followed by what looked like bones.

He did not recognize this kobold. It came careening into the camp, looking nervous, until Corai stopped him. "Who are you, and what are you doing here?"

The kobold jumped, but saw that it was only another kobold who spoke. "N-name is R-r-rubl... Rubluflis. Tribe flee to old dusty tower when cave ogre take over cave, about month ago. Then big bugs show up at tower, kill everyone, then go away. Bout a week 'go. Strange stone give me bad head sickness. Break it to stop bad luck. Not work, awful things happen. Bones follow me when I sneeze." He wiped his nose and snuffled back mucus. "You not try kill me will you?" Rubluflis sneezed, causing 3 dead kobolds from Corai's nocturnal killing spree to stand up and limp over to him, making him cringe.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 09:01:01 pm by HugoLuman »
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Corai

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2681 on: June 26, 2012, 09:08:02 pm »

EDIT due to ninja by Wierd: don't worry, nothing to threaten our lives. If you'll recall I've said that we need time to rebuild before we can survive any large-scale disasters. Just something to move things along.

Corai, settling into his crappy copper throne, was content. It might not look like much, but the chair looked magnificent compared to the rest of the camp. Sometimes it was good to be competent amongst idiots; you quickly wound up in charge. It could be annoying, too, when everyone relied on you, but now was one of the good times. Wait, who was that? He had told everyone to stay within the camp. Why was there a kobold out there, headed this way? Corai squinted. A kobold followed by what looked like bones.

He did not recognize this kobold. It came careening into the camp, looking nervous, until Corai stopped him. "Who are you, and what are you doing here?"

The kobold jumped, but saw that it was only another kobold who spoke. "N-name is R-r-rubl... Rubluflis. Tribe flee to old dusty tower when cave ogre take over cave, about month ago. Then big bugs show up at tower, kill everyone, then go away. Bout a week 'go. Strange stone give me bad head sickness. Break it to stop bad luck. Not work, awful things happen. Bones follow me when I sneeze." He wiped his nose and snuffled back mucus. "You not try kill me will you?" Rubluflis sneezed, causing 3 dead kobolds from Corai's nocturnal killing spree to stand up and limp over to him, making him cringe.


Corai staggered back.


"N-NM-N--N-N-N-N-N-NECROMANCER!" he shrieked.


"THE DEAD WALK!" he screamed, pulling out his dagger. Several kobolds ran to Corai's side with copper swords, only to get on their knees in surrender at the sight of the zombies.



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WillowLuman

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2682 on: June 26, 2012, 09:10:14 pm »

Rubluflis turned around, saw the fresh zombie bolds, and screamed. He leapt behind Corai, cowering, and squeaked "Don't let them eeeat me! Eeek!"

The zombies merely stumbled over to their terrified master, passive and slackjawed...
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Corai

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2683 on: June 26, 2012, 09:17:05 pm »

Corai took a sword from one of the incompentant soldiers and spun around, beheading a zombie. The other two lurched fowerd, only to be cut down by the soldiers. Corai waved his hand, and they grabbed Rubluflis by the arms and kicked him to the ground.


"W-w-w-w" he shuddered, Corai put his sword to his throat, kneeing down.


"If you say a thing, you will die like your minions necromancer. You, did Freeble ever make a jail?" he said, regaining his attitude.


"We have cage."

"Put this filth in it, and put a rope reed on his mouth so he cant revive any of the corpses still being buried." Corai said throwing the sword back to the guards. They scattered, doing as told.


Corai smiled at the frightened kobold.


-Corai hates necromancers. If you didnt figure that out. But dont worry, I have diffrent plans then torture.-

« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 09:18:41 pm by Corai »
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WillowLuman

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #2684 on: June 26, 2012, 09:21:46 pm »

[You remember this guy, right? Well, not in story, but I mentioned him to you OOC a while back. He doesn't know he's a necromancer. All he knows is that bones follow him when he sneezes.]

Rubluflis, tied up and gagged, was unable to scratch his nose. He could feel his eyes tearing up, the itch mounting. He sneezed again, 3 more bodies rising up and walking over to his cage. This made him shake violently, trying to squirm away from them, but he could not get further than the other side of the cage.
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