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Did you have fun with this?

Yes
- 4 (14.3%)
No
- 1 (3.6%)
It was fun for a long time but towards the end it just started to drag
- 6 (21.4%)
I wish I could have joined in.
- 17 (60.7%)

Total Members Voted: 28


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Author Topic: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued... FULL DISCLOSURE  (Read 266346 times)

WillowLuman

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3705 on: July 28, 2012, 04:20:49 pm »

[How would crashing a computer break the world? Presumably, it would just break the computer. Also, don't most calculators just return an "undefined" for that input?]

"THIS WORLD IS NOT A SIMULATION. IT IS VERY REAL. BUT IT IS A GAME SIMULTANEOUSLY. THE NATURE OF THIS BEING PREVENTS IT FROM BREAKING IT'S OWN RULES. IT IS AN EXTENSION OF THIS WORLD AS THIS WORLD IS AN EXTENSION OF IT. THIS IS THE REASON FOR OMNIPOTENCE; THIS UNIVERSE IS PART OF THE OPPONENT'S WILL."

"Why are you telling us this?" demanded HugoLuman. "If we're up against the WORLD ITSELF, how the hell are we supposed to win? And furthermore, didn't this 'opponent' get desperate because the boatmurdered guys found out they were being played? By telling us this, you've made us a threat, and that means it will come after us!"

"THEY WERE NOT A THREAT UNTIL THEY DISCOVERED THE NAME OF THE OPPONENT. ONLY WITH THE NAME CAN THE BEIN BE LOCATED."
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 04:22:29 pm by HugoLuman »
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3706 on: July 28, 2012, 09:10:47 pm »

"THE NATURE OF THIS BEING PREVENTS IT FROM BREAKING IT'S OWN RULES. IT IS AN EXTENSION OF THIS WORLD AS THIS WORLD IS AN EXTENSION OF IT. THIS IS THE REASON FOR OMNIPOTENCE; THIS UNIVERSE IS PART OF THE OPPONENT'S WILL."

Why does this sound less like the world itself, and more like the soul of the world?
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Gizogin

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3707 on: July 28, 2012, 11:00:48 pm »

[Aww, my first night back and I don't have anything to do...]
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WillowLuman

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3708 on: July 29, 2012, 02:00:10 am »

[I need to finish our business in here before I leave on sunday (in a few hours), don't want to leave us stranded for a week.]
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wierd

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3709 on: July 29, 2012, 07:31:09 am »

[a simulated computer, which is inside the world simulation, is just another subroutine inside that simulation. Telling the computer to execute an unexcutable function will break the world, if the world is poorly written. (it will have to have its own exception handler routines to catch the divide by zero error. Most programs rely on the OS's professionally written exception handler, but that one usually defaults to nuking naughty processes, which would nuke the world simulation, in the event of a serious fault, like a divide by 0. Writing an exception handler is "Serious business".)  This is because for something to happen in the world, the world has to process it. The simulated computer is really just an emulator, and everything run on that computer, is really running on the computer that is hosting the world. As such, saddling the simulated computer with unsolvable problems will saddle the world computer with unsolvable problems. A turing complete machine is able to simulate any other turing complete machine, at the cost of performance. This means for the simulated computer to run at the appearance of full speed, the whole world has to slow down to match. There is fundamentally no such thing as an infinitely fast processor, which means that our magnificent bastard can be "attacked" (made to become frustrated, or bored) by simply overloading the world simulation. We can do this with boring, absurd shit-- like loading virtual computers up with REALLY cranky code. Since it is pretty predictable that we would do this, he would likely have optimized the software so that computer simulations will be given greater performance, which means running the code natively, instead of nesting it. This is where the problem with the divide by 0 error comes into play. If the simulated computer's emulation thread is running native code directly (High level emulation), there is no efficient way to trap exceptions. To trap exceptions perfectly, you have to demote the process with a hypervisor, and this means reinstating the performance hit.  You dont get your cake and eat it too. Making the simulated computer divide by 0 was a simple (if ballsy!) test to see what kind of exception handling the magnificent bastard has instituted.  That the world didnt even hiccup a little from it, shows that he has elected to risk his computer melting to slag from excessive processor loads from simulating simulations. Next up, is seeing how it handles such basic things as buffer overflows inside simulated simulations. This could have 1 of 3:possible effects, depending on how the world simulator is written:]

[1) Nothing of note happens from our vantage point. The access violation is properly trapped. Outside our vantage point, the world simulation hiccups a little, as memory gets shuffled around to prevent it being overwritten by the access violation.]

[2) "Mysterious shit" happens around the simulated computer, as the access violation garbles some of the nearby memory OUTSIDE the simulated computer's process. Material types suddenly and inexplicably change. Tiles of "Unknown Type" material, blocks of floorless wall, and sudden holes of empty space, and other anomalies appear-- similar to what happens when you use buggy hacking tools, like Tiletypes from DFHack.]

[3) The access violation causes an unrecoverable exception, and the world process is halted. Congratulations, you broke the world. This happens when the access violation overwrites fundemental program code on the stack, leading to nonsense instructions which raise the panic. The OS that the world simulator is running on will trap the exception as best it can by terminating the thread with an error message, then will attempt to clean up the memory, and return it to the free pool. This is the "oops!" version of a buffer overflow vulnerability-- instead of an executable payload, random garbage gets shoved into the execution pipe, which crashes the process.]

[as you can see, regardless of the severity of the outcome, the magnificent bastard *WILL* notice that I am up to nefarious shit, if for no other reason than the sudden spike in lagginess it will cause. This will force him into taking direct actions. If multiple people are engaged in such antics, it will occupy all his time in trying to circumvent the loss of fun in the simulation, making him vulnerable to actual tactical blunders. The "moody dwarf" exploit I have planned will almost certainly get his attention, if the divide by 0 fun didnt.]

[We have a choice in what we want the payload of the moody dwarf exploit to accomplish. We dont know enough about our target platform (The REAL computer that the world is running on) to properly disable its input devices. What we DO know, is that it is likely an Intel or compatible processor. This means we DO have a thermonuclear torpedo if we want to deploy it. Intel processors have a HARDWARE level exception handler, known as the "Triple fault reset". By carefully structuring the injected code segment, we can create such an event, which *WILL* reboot the computer, and force it to lose data. A triple fault is NOT recoverable.]
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 08:04:46 am by wierd »
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WillowLuman

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3710 on: July 29, 2012, 09:57:18 am »

[If we are in a simulation, it wouldn't be some intel PC (or any other name brand), it would be more like the matrix. Theoretically, a nigh-omnipotent being could create a computer with infinite processing power, or the computer used to manipulate the world is just another kind of magic wand; a "form we are comfortable with" of whatever means are being used to screw with the world. The world has also seemed to become more "real" and less "gamey" the longer we've been here, reaching full reality when updated to 1.0 from whatever we started at.]
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Gizogin

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3711 on: July 29, 2012, 10:14:10 am »

[Okay, I added a character sheet to the TVTropes page, and added the names of a bunch of characters.  I know I'm missing a few, and I haven't put any tropes in for anyone except Lana and the Gizogins, but it's at least there now.

I don't think it would be possible to "crash" the world we're in.  If it is indeed a simulation, it would have to be one so mind-explodingly complex that we wouldn't be able to mess with it.  After all, it can support several different dimensions, multiple styles of magic, the complicated personalities of all of us forumites and the supporting characters, and all of the physical laws necessary to hold all of this together.  Whatever computer is running this (again, I'm not really buying that scenario) would have to be so far beyond anything we can conceive of today.]
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WillowLuman

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3712 on: July 29, 2012, 10:29:49 am »

[Then again, the other universes are in fact other universes; the shadowy figure didn't like them interfering because he couldn't control them. But yeah, if this is a computer, it would have to be inconceivably advanced.

Thanks for the Char Sheet, Gizogin.]

"Doesn't that make you a threat, then?"

"I HAVE HIBERNATED FOR TEN THOUSAND YEARS. POWER CELLS ARE RECHARGED. ACTIVATE TEMPORAL SHIFT!"

With a flash, the dalek vanished. The adamantine chains and gun-blocker clattered to the floor.

"Aw, come on!"

[Well, that pretty much concludes what I had in mind for this trip. Had to wrap it up as I'm about to go on a real life trip to Yosemite. All that's left is to leave, or scavenge whatever still works after nearly 10,000 years of neglect.]
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wierd

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3713 on: July 29, 2012, 01:32:25 pm »

[hmm.. Our perceptions of our world doesn't really hold that much weight actually. As mentioned earlier, any turing complete machine with enough time, and enough memory-- can simulate any other turing machine perfectly. Just much, much more slowly. A very good simulation, of which our personalities are part of that simulation, could be hosted on near any pile of crap hardware, as long as the person running it was willing to wait centuries for a second of simulated time to pass. Or, that the simulator does not simulate the whole world at once; only areas that are of interest-- which is what current versions of DF do. If he is using us to help expose holes in his simulation (to help make sure it really is perfect..) then keeping us alive inside is very much aligned with his purpose, but allowing our escape is not. This seems inconsistent with earlier enigmatic dialog. Even the matrix had bugs-- This was a central theme of the movie. It was how Mr Neo was able to dodge bullets, rubberize the ground, and fly. The difference is that the memory access violations were occurring directly inside neo's head, and manifesting outside as directed payloads. The matrix was just another computer; one with really complicated software, but still just a computer. That means it has the same problems when the people and software agents inside start stressing its limitations. Note what happens in the final movie to the machine culture when evil agent smith starts assimilating the software of the matrix-- it starts doing bad things to the machine mainframe. The reason is because it is overloading it, among other things. ]

[All the things that the machines do, or cause to happen make some modicum of sense. Even the deja vu. Essentially, the deja vu happens when they interrupt the matrix's process, suspend it a few seconds, make changes, and restart the simulation. They cant halt the human cognative processes, because those are hosted on human organic brains, attached to the matrix. Instead, the give a crippled datafeed to keep the human brains going while they make the change, which is why there is a deja vu.]

[The greater threat would have been the creation of new software agents inside the matrix; This explains why agents have orders to terminate rogue programs. Imagine if the Marevingean (however you spell that) had decided to make little AI babies with the tall black haired chick, instead of creating perverted pastries, and that those new AI children would have grown up in contact with humans, and may even believe themselves to BE humans. They may align themselves with the resistance cause (like the oracle, and her caretaker), making them a lasting and persistent threat. In our universe, that is represented by the dwarves our interaction is elevating the cognative functions of-- as well as our directly implemented beings-- such as X.  These beings run natively on the fabric of the simulation; they have to be, in order to not run really, really slowly. That means they can learn to directly manipulate the fabric of the simulation-- conversely, it also means they cannot leave the simulation. What they can do, is usurp control of the simulation away from its current overlord.]
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Eric Blank

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3714 on: July 29, 2012, 02:49:21 pm »

[Grab everything. You can all just ride on top of the tank!]

[Hasn't it been asserted well enough that this isn't a simulation, but an actual world?]

Eric was miserable. As soon as the other forumites had left, dwarves started pouring out across the landscape, few of them so much as looking back. Most of the workforce helping excavate the ruined fortress had gone with them, leaving only himself, and two mooks that didn't really know what they were doing. At this point, nobody knew what they were doing. The only ones that DID know were THE TWENTY-FOUR BASTARDS SITTING OUTSIDE SAYING THEY HAD "SOMETHING BETTER TO DO" THAN HELP HIM HELP THEM! Not one of them was doing anything but sitting on their bums, besides the ceramicist, and nobody was helping him either. Soon they would run out of food, because the only ones that cared enough to provide food, and knew how to keep a damn surface plant alive, were him and Reudh. Reudh was on guard duty most of the time, and Eric couldn't take a break for anything but sleep, or there'd be a riot because "You're not working fast enough! I want my room back!" Really, why were the only people left the peasants? No skills, because they never took the time to acquire any, because somebody else would always provide for them in return for lugging shit around occasionally, and usually not even that. Jerry was trying to convince them to pick up an axe and help make barrels and beds, but no, the trees were too far away.

If they're so scared of rocks fallng on them if they come work inside, then let the sky fall on them. Surely their departed loved ones would be pleased, because nobody was making coffins for them either. Seven bodies they'd found so far, two of which were still mostly buried. At this point, the only survivors would be in the food stockpiles.

"Fuck this. Wait here, I'm going to get us some damn help before these bodies start rotting."

"Wot? They won' listen to ye! Cannae we just leave 'em to starve?"

"No, because we'll probably starve first."



Eric blundered lazily outside. They were still sitting around, talking the day away.

"Listen up, you twats! You're all gonna make yourselves busy, or I'll be making you dead!"

The entire group fell silent in unison; he had their undivided attention.

"You five on the left; you're all gonna go help jerry collect wood and make beds, bins and barrels, like any proper fortress should have! The next 7, you're all gonna go pick berries and shit, and Reudh's gonna show you how to plant the seeds after we eat them. Reudh, stop guarding the place: nobody whatsoever is going to bother attacking us at this point. You three are gonna go help that ceramicist make clay, and the rest of you are gonna grab picks and shovels or whatever else you can find and then you're coming underground with me. You're gonna dig your own god damn rooms out, and bury the dead. Questions and complaints prohibited! Understood?"

"Yes..." They all exclaimed in a slow, zombie-like fashion, before shuffling off to attend to their new duties. Those assigned to Jerry blundered over to him an stared expectantly, which left him rather horrified, but he eventually worked out orders for them and they filed out towards the forest together.
Honestly, it was all kind of horrifying to see so many people jump up and do whatever you say, especially when they all hate you.

"Roead! Get your arse off that box and help us, or I'll make sure nobody ever even thinks of excavating your tomb again for the next millenia!"
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Reudh

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3715 on: July 29, 2012, 03:18:17 pm »

[What's the link to the TVTropes page for this?]

As soon as Eric had the words out, Reudh stammered "Aye, Eric! I will help with the berries!"
He trundled off with the seven other dwarves to gather some berries, and to show them his Novice Planter skills.

[Yay someone remembered Reudh. I had almost forgotten about him!]

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Gizogin

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3717 on: July 29, 2012, 06:29:13 pm »

[Hmm, I just realized that I completely forgot to add Corai and Eric to the character sheet...  My bad.

As far as our actions from here, we should probably go with what Eric said.  Take what we can and head back.]

Gizogin slowly woke up.  He'd fallen asleep in the shade of the tower, but the sun had moved around and was now shining in his face.  He sighed and got to his feet, then walked back around to the front of the tower and went inside.

Deep within the tower's lower levels, Gizo X was feeling rather annoyed.  Annoyed with wierd, for being insufferably confrontational, as usual.  Annoyed with the dalek, for having the bad manners to leave before giving out any useful information.  Annoyed with Lana, for disappearing again, having grown bored with all the technical mumbo-jumbo.  It probably wasn't a good state of mind to be in, so he cast it aside.  There was still work to be done.

"Wierd," he said firmly.  The necromancer was still fuming over the dalek's escape, but he looked up at X's voice.

"What do you want?" he snapped.

"It's getting late.  We should grab what we want and get back to the fortress."  He had to fight the urge to add in a comment about how wierd needed to control his emotions better.  The necromancer, in his current state, wouldn't appreciate being lectured on emotions by an unfeeling automaton.  Nevermind that X could actually understand emotions perfectly well; wierd wouldn't see it that way.


[I've been working under the assumption that X has emotions and can, should he choose to, react accordingly.  It's a conscious thing, though; he can override his emotional response completely at any time.  I think he would recognize that other people would expect to see the facial expressions and body language that go with emotions, and that standing out too much can be disadvantageous.]
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Oliolli

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3718 on: July 30, 2012, 01:38:59 am »

Guard coming back. Hide behind doorframe. Guard comes in, one quick punch. *THUMP* Out like a candle. Oliolli smiled as he started down the well-lit corridor.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 01:41:45 am by Oliolli »
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When all you've got is an adjustable spanner and an entire freight warehouse of terrifying cogs and gears, everything looks like "just a prototype".
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You all turned Swordthunders into a bastion of madness that seems to warp in on itself under its own hatred of sanity.  I'm so happy!
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Gizogin

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Re: If Bay Forum were a Mountain Hall, continued...
« Reply #3719 on: July 30, 2012, 07:42:35 am »

It was several minutes before Gizogin regained consciousness.  His head was pounding, and he couldn't remember how he'd wound up face-down on the floor.  In fact, he was struggling to remember where he was at all.  'I should get up,' he thought.  Up?  How did that go again?  Groggily, he went through the motions, gathering his hands and knees below and pushing himself to a sitting position.  The effort made his head swim, and he slumped against a wall.  'Wall?  Why is there a wall there?'  Suddenly, the memories rushed back.  He was at the tower, standing guard while the others explored the lower levels.  But if he'd been knocked out...



A faint ringing sound was coming from somewhere in X's coat.  He pulled out a tiny crystal, looking at it intently.  "Gizo," he barked.  "What's the matter?"  The crystal flickered, and the head and shoulders of Gizogin appeared in the air above it.

Immediately, he could tell that something was wrong.  Gizogin's eyes were unfocused, and he looked dazed, not at all his usual bright and alert self.  "Someone's here," he slurred.  "Knocked me out.  Dunno how long.  'm concussed, no problem."

"Did you see who it was?" X asked.  When Gizogin shook his head (which made him wince), X said, "Okay, we can handle ourselves down here.  Get some rest; I'll check in on you in a couple hours."

"Nah, think I'll bang some nails in with m' forehead," Gizogin responded sarcastically.  "Or 'm I doing that already?"

X grinned.  Sarcasm was a good sign.
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One FB post. Many dick jokes. Pokemon. !!VOLCANO!!. Dwarven mood thingee. Derailment itself. Girlinhat's hat. Cuba. Karl Marx. This is why i love Bay12 forums.
The rest of my sig.
Fear the fluffballs
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