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Author Topic: What was the point of material changes?  (Read 8554 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2012, 01:14:01 pm »

Wow, don't care.
You would if you had a sense of humour :|

Garath

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2012, 01:21:04 pm »

you may not care about gravity, but gravity cares about you
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slothen

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2012, 01:51:22 pm »

So, you're unhappy that the specific gravity of cedar in the game is based on a tree that isn't actually a cedar and then point out the difference in green versus dry weights for cedar by using a localized member of a juniper species?
No he's unhappy that the specific mass of cedar in the game is based on a tree that is not a cedar.

Not the gravity.

The gravity is constant.

/Physics/

then learn2physics.  Specifc gravity is not a constant but a function of density, which appears to be the topic.  So he's more right than wrong in that usage, even if its only by accident.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2012, 01:58:51 pm »

then learn2physics.  Specifc gravity is not a constant but a function of density, which appears to be the topic.  So he's more right than wrong in that usage, even if its only by accident.
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Starver

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2012, 02:21:01 pm »

Not the gravity.

The gravity is constant.

/Physics/
Very tempted to reference Liftwood or Cavorite here.  But it wouldn't help. ;)
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krenshala

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2012, 02:34:41 pm »

Not the gravity.

The gravity is constant.

/Physics/
Very tempted to reference Liftwood or Cavorite here.  But it wouldn't help. ;)
It would be entertaining, but you are correct that it would not help. :D
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Uristocrat

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2012, 03:27:01 pm »

The only change made to the "cedar" was the density.  The difference between that tree and the Lebanon cedar in terms of density is well within the natural variation, so if you're going that route, the only thing wrong is the comment, which has no in game effect at all.  That is, of course, my fault, but I don't think it a major problem.  That thread has been posted for some months now inviting comment and further research, after all, with that only being noticed last night.  While you are correct that we had to take averages for many things, this is a limitation of DF.  We simply cannot assign each stone some random density within the range at present.  And even if Toady did that, all it would really do is to make DF more memory-hungry, because every one of the stones in your fortress would need another integer attached to it.  That would be undesirable.

I'm certainly in favor of doing more science on the subject, but given that density is important for hauling speed and fall damage, both of which are important in the new release, I think that we need more science, not less.  You say that you don't see the point of changing to arbitrary values, but the materials already had arbitrary default values.  In the case of wood and many types of stone, these were based on the rock and wood templates, which were utterly out of line with the actual materials.

Put another way, the choice was between somewhat-realistic arbitrary values and completely unrealistic ones.  Insofar as you can help make more realistic values, please do!  I spent several months researching, but I'm no expert on trees.  And trees probably do deserve more love in the raws.  If you want to help, let's work on a list of representative world trees that should be in game, based on real species.  Then we can split up things like oak into their subtypes, research proper growth locations, densities and colors, and mod this information in a way that allows Toady to incorporate it.
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Starver

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2012, 03:44:46 pm »

...and, besides, I think that you ought to take into account that Dwarfworld is not Roundworld (a.k.a. 'Earth').  Sure, you can find dogs and cats and all manner of beasts of the air, sea and land that we have on Earth; the rocks appear to have a very similar (and now more so) similarity to the rocks we would find within our own planet's crust; there are items of clothing there that approximate to items of clothing that are (or were) worn on our planet; there's all manner of other synchronicity between the two realms...

But... Much apart from the fact that (aside, perhaps from on Rhodes, if you believe some tales) there never were any motile Bronze Collossi, there's an apparent lack of actual dragons in the fossil record, necromancy is very much non-efficacious (by all believable accounts)... much much apart from all of that: there's nothing to say that the item that one calls a larch (or rather is identified as such, to us, within all the information passing across the portal between these two universes) is actually a larch as we'd know it, much aside from anyone's best wishes that it be so.

It could even be a good visual facsimile (to those with the wherewithal to examine the minutiae of the bark's striations, the exact branching patterns, the leaf and/or needle design and the form of seed dispersal; an ability that is not even available to us) but have an internal density of anything from balsa to ironwood, and I don't think there's any reason to believe it ever came from the same seed-stock.  The fact that quite a few items are so close as to (at least to everyone except those with utterly critical eyes) be considered almost exactly equivalent is something that the Guardians Of The Portal must be credited with.  But you can't really complain any more about any such trivial dislocations as were mentioned than you could about how many ribs the next Forgotten Beast you encounter might possess...  (If any!)
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Garath

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2012, 01:31:36 am »

external ribs for easier counting

do external ribs actually make any difference for the FB or is it just for aestethics?
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Jam a door with its corpse and let all the goblins in. Hey, nobody said it had to be a weapon against your enemies.
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And then everyone melted.

Callista

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2012, 01:52:11 am »

DF is like reality with lossy compression. The trick is to balance the simplicity of lower resolution with the complexity of the original information preserved in the final simulation.
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ClkWrkJester

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2012, 02:23:46 am »

If the numbers are off.. post in a thread of suggestions. Toady's OCD enough to change it if he agrees or feels like it.  With the new physics stuff, I'm guessing he'll be really keen on getting it right in the end, though so post in the suggestions forums or whatnot with the right values.

As to the folks posting hostile responses? Chill. There's no reason to get sharp on boards dedicated to a game where we light dorfs on fire for fun.  This neighborhood is generally really nice and welcoming.  Keep it that way. And get off my lawn.
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Finn

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2012, 03:17:44 am »

Dwarfworld is not Roundworld (a.k.a. 'Earth').

Wait.  Round?

Sig'd
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 03:21:49 am by Finn »
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I thought 'complained about the draft lately' meant they didn't have a door to their room.

Garath

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2012, 05:18:24 am »

^
^

reference to 'science of discworld' books
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Quote from: Urist Imiknorris
Jam a door with its corpse and let all the goblins in. Hey, nobody said it had to be a weapon against your enemies.
Quote from: Frogwarrior
And then everyone melted.

Starver

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2012, 03:00:25 pm »

Give that man some slood!

(Indeed, I claim no credit for the term, but it's a useful shorthand.  Well, would be if "Earth" wasn't only five characters. ;) )
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Finn

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Re: What was the point of material changes?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2012, 02:03:24 am »

It could be called "Dirt", that's only 4
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I thought 'complained about the draft lately' meant they didn't have a door to their room.
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