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[backora900]

My mine cart 'lift' is working. 
I've uploaded the map at the archive: http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-11326-wheelauthors-waterfall

The design is a 3x3 shaft made as a double helix.
The power is transmitted down through the empty central square.
My setup uses a highest speed roller at every second level on the up track, and a high track stop to avoid derailing on every other level on the down track.

I can try to write more about it if there is interest, but I hope the map shows the concept well enough.

Nice example.

But I have to ask:
- How much power does this particular setting require (and how many levels does it take).
- Also, do you have problems with dwarves pathing through this track? Because I don't see any stairs nearby.
- If possible can you count how long does it take for a minecart to go up and down? (even something like 10 seconds with 100 FPS would help if you don't want to count ticks )

[Techhead]

My mine cart 'lift' is working. 
I've uploaded the map at the archive: http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-11326-wheelauthors-waterfall

The design is a 3x3 shaft made as a double helix.
The power is transmitted down through the empty central square.
My setup uses a highest speed roller at every second level on the up track, and a high track stop to avoid derailing on every other level on the down track.

I can try to write more about it if there is interest, but I hope the map shows the concept well enough.

I'm wondering what you have going on on level 75.

[MehMuffin]

Do minecarts have to connect directly with stockpiles or can they just be used for part of a route? I was thinking of making a central track that went down next to my main rampway to shorten hauling routes, but would dwarves use it even if it wasn't connected to any stockpiles?

[askovdk]

My mine cart 'lift' is working. 
I've uploaded the map at the archive: http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-11326-wheelauthors-waterfall

..

Nice example.

But I have to ask:
- How much power does this particular setting require (and how many levels does it take).
- Also, do you have problems with dwarves pathing through this track? Because I don't see any stairs nearby.
- If possible can you count how long does it take for a minecart to go up and down? (even something like 10 seconds with 100 FPS would help if you don't want to count ticks )

Sorry for the late reply.

The entire lift and power system uses 405 units of power, where most of it goes to power the redundant extra water wheels.
I.e. it is realistic to power a similar setup with a medium sized wind farm.

No problems with parthing.
The entire stack is restricted, and the automatic airlock system with pressure plates linked to doors keeps animals away.

It is very fast. A round trip of up and down 30 levels takes about 4 seconds, and I guess my FPS is about 40.
I tried the same setup on my laptop, and noticed that there was a 'lag' induced each time the pressure plate doors opens (probably due to recalculation of all paths? :-/), but I don't notice a similar problem on my main computer.

[WanderingKid]

Okay, I'm having an argument with tracking from the surface.  In particular, I'm having difficulties due to the fact that you can't carve tracks into soil.  alright, no biggie, I'll just setup some ramps and build tracks, right?

Well, my usual 'ramp' through rock that I'd carve tracks into just isn't working.  I keep getting blocked from site orders by the masons.  To add to my grief, it doesn't look like I'm getting the ramps to work correctly.

Here's what I did.  Drive a mined path out to point A.  At point A, carve a ramp up, move up a level and over one square, repeat.  I keep getting told they're unusable when I CAN build the constructed tracks as well, and can only build them over 'open space' until I've got track near it, which certainly didn't work, so thus I'm forced to place them one at a time... and getting 'blocked site' complaints.

So, a few questions.  CAN you combine carved and constructed track?  And does anyone have some hints on dealing with the ramps through soil and constructed tracks?

[Sutremaine]

Yes, you can combine them just fine (though not on the same tile...). I can't what you're doing, based on on what you wrote, but to make tracks work you need the following (carved track for comparison):

Carved non-ramp track
*You need to set the connections of the track, which you do by telling the game which tiles a particular track tile can connect to. For a corner this means designating twice -- once from the corner tile to its entry side, and once from the corner to its exit side (entry and exit being relative).

Carved ramp track
*Again, you need to tell the game which other tiles each track tile is connected to, and again this means designating a tile twice if it's a corner. The difference here is that these tracks cross levels, but that doesn't really matter for the purposes of tile connections -- a flat track running in a line from east-west needs to have all EW tiles on the middle parts of the track, and a sloped track running from east-west also needs to have all EW tiles. (This isn't actually true, since a ramp running downwards from east to west can be guided in either direction when all the track tiles are W only.*) You can't designate it all in one go, unlike straight track, as track designations don't carry through z-levels.

Constructed non-ramp track
*For straight sections this works something like carved track. You select EW or NS, increase the width or length of the tile area as necessary, and place it in sections of one to ten tiles, or more if you're making parallel tracks. For corners you need to place the tiles one at a time, and select the connection type from the list.

Constructed ramp track
*These always need to be placed one at a time, and you need to select the connection type from the list. As with carved track, the change in z-levels between tiles has no effect on the connection type needed.

You don't need to construct ramps on open space. As with regular constructed ramps, they're only created as up-ramps and the game fills in the down-ramp on the level above. You should be able to construct a ramp while the dwarf is standing on the site -- I've done it before.

* I believe you'd need the proper connections if you wanted to use power to get the cart up the ramp. I'm not sure what's going on with the track connections in that case -- I think the dwarves are shoving the minecart along the ground because there is no track running between stops, but because all the ground tiles they're shoving the cart across are track tiles those tiles are creating the amount of friction appropriate to a fully-functioning track. But I don't know that for sure.

[WanderingKid]

Yes, you can combine them just fine (though not on the same tile...). I can't what you're doing, based on on what you wrote, but to make tracks work you need the following (carved track for comparison):

Whoops, sorry, I'll try to be more clear.

Carved non-ramp track
Carved ramp track

Yep, I've got Carved Tracks working just fine (still fighting with rollers and DWRs but that's another story).  Appreciate the reminder there, however.  It's this whole soil and constructed tracks I'm fighting with...

Constructed non-ramp track
*For straight sections this works something like carved track. You select EW or NS, increase the width or length of the tile area as necessary, and place it in sections of one to ten tiles, or more if you're making parallel tracks. For corners you need to place the tiles one at a time, and select the connection type from the list.

So far so good, was able to do this in a test scenario without a problem to make sure I hadn't lost my mind.

Constructed ramp track
*These always need to be placed one at a time, and you need to select the connection type from the list. As with carved track, the change in z-levels between tiles has no effect on the connection type needed.

Here's where I'm doing a head-desk.  I'll try to be a lot more explicit.

You don't need to construct ramps on open space. As with regular constructed ramps, they're only created as up-ramps and the game fills in the down-ramp on the level above. You should be able to construct a ramp while the dwarf is standing on the site -- I've done it before.

In this particular case, I wasn't able to.  I actually channeled out an adjacent ramp to allow them access.  This hints that something I'm doing is wrong.

So far this track is completely unpowered, I'll worry about that after I can get a push working from the highest position.

... After goofing around with this a bit (and leaving the post up so I could edit it as necessary) I found out my error wasn't from laying the track... though I can't get a pushed cart to go up one level but that's known, wanted to test myself.  The problem was I'd earlier assigned a different minecart to the tracks, and didn't have a furniture stockpile setup, so the old one was still sitting there looking like it'd never went down the hole.  I'd also fouled up one of the track pieces so my cart was 'skydiving' one of the carved ramps, which slowed it down enough that when I'd look for it underground I'd end up impatient.  You need a bit of 'flat' track from what I could see to get constructed ramps going, though, so it had something to connect to, or it would complain at me it was 'blocked'.

Alright, now to muck around with stealing a bit of power from my waterfall generator and see if I can get this puppy powered up for quantum bone (and eventually, wood) delivery to the crafting levels.

Thanks for the help, Sutremaine.  It at least made sure I double checked every inch of it before I decided to go foot in mouth taste-testing.

[Sutremaine]

In this particular case, I wasn't able to.  I actually channeled out an adjacent ramp to allow them access.  This hints that something I'm doing is wrong.

Can you put up a screenshot? If they have a floor tile next to the build site (upramps count as floor), they should definitely be able to build the ramp. Either it'd be supported by the existing floor, or by being connected to the floor tile the dwarf is standing on to do the constructing.

You need a bit of 'flat' track from what I could see to get constructed ramps going, though, so it had something to connect to, or it would complain at me it was 'blocked'.

The 'blocked site' message is part of the building process, and should come up if you replace the failing track tiles with regular constructed floor and ramp. It's not a track-specific problem. You can set up routes on nothing but ramped track and set the stops so that there are no yellow !s anywhere on the stop list, but the minecart will roll down the ramp as soon as it's placed.

[WanderingKid]

Can you put up a screenshot? If they have a floor tile next to the build site (upramps count as floor), they should definitely be able to build the ramp. Either it'd be supported by the existing floor, or by being connected to the floor tile the dwarf is standing on to do the constructing.

Ah, that was just it, it was a straight ramp, no adjacent floor.

So, for example, here I needed to build the adjacent ramp.  I believe it's so they had somewhere they could stand next to it:

Mind you, I hadn't needed that for carved track.

Meanwhile, down here, I was able to carve the track and build the first ramp connected to the carved track without an issue:

My guess is because they could stand on the floor where the other track was already existing.

The 'blocked site' message is part of the building process, and should come up if you replace the failing track tiles with regular constructed floor and ramp. It's not a track-specific problem. You can set up routes on nothing but ramped track and set the stops so that there are no yellow !s anywhere on the stop list, but the minecart will roll down the ramp as soon as it's placed.

Ah, the top of my ramp looks like this:


So that wasn't it as far as I could tell.  It just wasn't allowing me to build constructed ramps until there was something I could attach to, such as the flat parts upstairs or the carved track/ramps from below in the stone.

[Snaake]

Do minecarts have to connect directly with stockpiles or can they just be used for part of a route? I was thinking of making a central track that went down next to my main rampway to shorten hauling routes, but would dwarves use it even if it wasn't connected to any stockpiles?

If you're asking whether they'll just load up whatever they're carrying onto carts on their own initiative if the item was heading in a direction the tracks would go to, no, dwarves aren't that smart. You always need to tell them what gets loaded where (with the exception of a cart being submerged in water/magma automatically loads it with said fluid), and the same for unloading, or you can also use dumping track stops for that.

[Sutremaine]

Ah, that was just it, it was a straight ramp, no adjacent floor.

Ramps also count as floors in some situations, including access. You can build a 'bridge' over open air made of ramps and then put a wall tile at the end of it as easily as you'd build a 'bridge' made of floor tiles and with a wall tile on the end of it.

So that wasn't it as far as I could tell.  It just wasn't allowing me to build constructed ramps until there was something I could attach to, such as the flat parts upstairs or the carved track/ramps from below in the stone.

You can place a constructed ramp on a natural ramp tile if there's somewhere to work from. Attempting to do the same when the only floor on that level is underneath the ramp will result in a 'blocked' message. If you remove the ramp tile you can construct a ramp there, but the building material needs to be on the same level. One method of doing this is to order a bridge built over the downramp, but suspend it as soon as the architect brings the material. Once the miner removes the ramp, you can cancel the bridge construction to release the material for ramp-building. The miner will need the appropriate construction labour to remove the bridge and construct the ramp.

[WanderingKid]

For those curious, you can't get a cart to 'jump track' without ramps.



In the image above you'll see a portion of my minecart science section.  The cart is pushed down the left towards a 'kickback' roller hooked to a DWR.  Said roller is set to highest speed (roughly 8000 Urists).

The cart will NOT slip the track at this speed on a 90 degree turn (empty anyways) that's level.  I've allowed multiple attempts to confirm that it wasn't a one off.  Now to see if I can attain flight with only the roller.

[Sutremaine]

Testing's been done on that. Rollers by themselves (or a roller by itself, as one highest-speed roller is enough to max out the cart's speed) can't make a cart jump the tracks. You need three levels of acceleration, and you may need to keep the track level after acceleration to stop it from jumping the tracks at the next ramp down. I didn't have had any luck with accelerating the cart and then dropping it down a level for the final section -- it would always skip the ramp and crash into the wall beyond it.

[WanderingKid]

Testing's been done on that. Rollers by themselves (or a roller by itself, as one highest-speed roller is enough to max out the cart's speed) can't make a cart jump the tracks. You need three levels of acceleration, and you may need to keep the track level after acceleration to stop it from jumping the tracks at the next ramp down. I didn't have had any luck with accelerating the cart and then dropping it down a level for the final section -- it would always skip the ramp and crash into the wall beyond it.

Do you need the Max Roller + 3 levels for an airborne ramp as well?

[SandyCaesar]

Is there any way I could have a minecart loaded and on the rails, but not actually going anywhere until I give the say-so?