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[Mr. Palau]

• The stone 'platina' should be found as small clusters in chromite, hematite, native gold, serpentine and olivine, and as veins in olivine as well.
• Platina itself is unsmeltable.
• The "Refine platinum (use lead ore)" reaction takes one galena ore (coded as ore of lead), one platina rock and one unit of flux and produces 4 platinum bars and 4 (or fewer?) lead bars. (Perhaps the number should be random?)
• The "Refine platinum (use lead bars)" reaction takes
• The "Make white gold (use gold ore/bars)" reaction(s) should take one platina and one native gold (or 4 gold bars) to a smelter and output 8 "white gold" bars.
• The "Make white gold (use platinum bars)" reaction takes one platinum bar and one gold bar and produces two white gold bars.

Should only be three bars for the Platinum-Lead ore/bar reaction, the flux would absrob the impurities and oxides. Since you don't want those in your platinum bars, only three bars should be created, as the flux stone would become part of the slag and disposed of accordingly.

Oh and the platinum and lead form an alloy in the reaction described in the book, so the bars produced from the first reaction are an alloy of Platinum, small amount of impurities, and lead. He describes that those bars then undergo a process of Cupellation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupellation) in which the metels are rehaeted in order to get the lead to seperate from the platinum. He describes this as a seperate process (although he only devotes a sentance to it). Therefore, this should be a seperate reaction, turning the 3 alloyed lead bars into 1.5 platinum bars and 1.5 lead bars.

And since no one wants decimal units of bars, the first reaction should take 3 Platina ores, 3 Galena ores, 2 flux stones, and output 6 Platinum-Lead alloy bars. Then those bars can be seperated into 3 Platinum bars and 3 Lead bars.

[runlvlzero]

• The stone 'platina' should be found as small clusters in chromite, hematite, native gold, serpentine and olivine, and as veins in olivine as well.
• Platina itself is unsmeltable.
• The "Refine platinum (use lead ore)" reaction takes one galena ore (coded as ore of lead), one platina rock and one unit of flux and produces 4 platinum bars and 4 (or fewer?) lead bars. (Perhaps the number should be random?)
• The "Refine platinum (use lead bars)" reaction takes
• The "Make white gold (use gold ore/bars)" reaction(s) should take one platina and one native gold (or 4 gold bars) to a smelter and output 8 "white gold" bars.
• The "Make white gold (use platinum bars)" reaction takes one platinum bar and one gold bar and produces two white gold bars.

Should only be three bars for the Platinum-Lead ore/bar reaction, the flux would absrob the impurities and oxides. Since you don't want those in your platinum bars, only three bars should be created, as the flux stone would become part of the slag and disposed of accordingly.

Oh and the platinum and lead form an alloy in the reaction described in the book, so the bars produced from the first reaction are an alloy of Platinum, small amount of impurities, and lead. He describes that those bars then undergo a process of Cupellation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupellation) in which the metels are rehaeted in order to get the lead to seperate from the platinum. He describes this as a seperate process (although he only devotes a sentance to it). Therefore, this should be a seperate reaction, turning the 3 alloyed lead bars into 1.5 platinum bars and 1.5 lead bars.

And since no one wants decimal units of bars, the first reaction should take 3 Platina ores, 3 Galena ores, 2 flux stones, and output 6 Platinum-Lead alloy bars. Then those bars can be seperated into 3 Platinum bars and 3 Lead bars.

This all seems cool to me, should add more depth and realism to the game without completely cutting anything =)

[Arkenstone]

Well, I figured that for vanilla it'd be best to throw in the Pt/Pb separation process into the same reaction for simplicity's sake.  After all, there's already plenty of steps in smelting iron etc. that are handwaved (not to mention galena smelting).  As for the number of bars, why three instead of four like regular ore?  It'd be more intuitive to keep the numbers consistent, I'd think.

EDIT:
Also, I'm wondering if the reaction that uses galena ore should have a 20% chance of silver; I figure the dwarves would do what they could to reclaim it from the slag.  But I didn't see the book mention it, so maybe it's part of the platinum alloy?

[Sadrice]

Galena (in the pure form) does not contain silver, it's just that galena deposits tend to have native silver inclusions.  Perhaps native silver should occur as small clusters in galena veins?

[Courtesy Arloban]

The chemical composition ranges from Pt2.64Fe1.00 to Pt2.88Fe1.00 with Os, Ru, Ir, Rh and Pd below the analytical detection limit of the electron microprobe.

That means they didn't detect any, but do not want to commit to claiming it's pure.

Or, it could mean that they detected some but it's < 0.1% so they can't throw any numbers up.  As I said, additional information is required to tell one way or the other.  It'd sure help if someone could get access to the entire article, not just the abstract...  (I live half an hour away from my university, so I might drive in on the weekend and browse the library.  At the very least, I'll have free access to several academic networks from there.)


Oh, by the way I've updated the OP.

"below the analytical detection limit of the electron microprobe" pretty much says that they didn't find impurities using the electron microscope.  "below the analytical detection limit" is the same as "nothing above the analytical detection limit", being "above the analytical detection limit" is a prerequisite for detecting the impurities.  Since it is an electron microprobe, there is really nothing purer than the sample they described.

Actually, that source is not contradictory, it only seems so due to a misinterpretation of the meaning of the word "native". Read the very next sentence:

Platinum is usually alloyed with several per cent of iron and with smaller amounts of iridium, osmium, etc.

So this just confirmed that the so-called "Ferroan Platinum" does indeed contain other platinum-group metals.  These impurities make the metal to brittle to work with and they cannot be removed with heat alone. It takes a complex chemical process to do so.

So, unless you suspect that DF smelting technology includes massive chemical vats and temperatures far exceeding those of molten rock, then it is completely unrealistic that dwarves would be able to purify native platinum into something malleable.

I don't think every metal in the game comes out of the ground 100% pure.  Also, naturally occurring alloys change depending on where they are dug up in the world.  Just because alluvial deposits in the USA contain x% of iron doesn't mean some cluster in South Africa, nor under my mountain-home, should do too.  There is no standard, because nature doesn't have one.  Hence the hand-waving with the numbers in reality and in the game.  If you add even a sparing amount of fantasy-hand-waving on top of this, like an extra 200 degrees to a dwarven-smithy's forge, some extra chemicals he adds on his father's advice, I really don't see a problem.

"As a result, platinum is often found chemically uncombined as native platinum. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platinum  I don't know if someone is changing the wikipedia article back and forth since it is user editable so i'll add another source.
"The platinum metals are often found together in nature. In fact, one of the problems in producing platinum is finding a way of separating it from the other platinum metals. Unlike gold, however, these metals do not occur in masses large enough to mine."http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/platinum.aspx which happens to contradict it.  "Platinum is also used in small amounts in alloys. For example, cobalt alloyed with platinum makes a powerful magnet. An alloy is made by melting and mixing two or more metals. The mixture has properties different from those of the individual metals. The platinum-cobalt magnet is one of the strongest magnets known."  "The ordinary variety of native platinum is called polyxene; it is 80 percent to 90 percent platinum, with 3 percent to 11 percent iron, plus the other platinum metals, and gold, copper, and nickel."http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/464081/platinum-Pt  This would make a good model for your "platina" 

And yes that research does contradict that platinum can be found in pure form in nature, but I already linked to where you could buy a "pure" platinum nugget.  No metal ore is truly pure, not even native gold, but when it comes out of the ground so pure you cannot detect it's impurities with an electron microprobe it is already purer than any form of smelting could make it.

To summarise; just because platinum is by and large extracted from relatively impure desposits does not mean that purer desposits couldn't be nor haven't been found.

The point is if they have been found, all my research has yet to turn up a record of it.  And since I have found several sources stating that platinum never occurs naturally in pure form, that's what I'm going with.  The only trick is figuring out if any of the impure forms would be processable by dwarven science.  I've ruled out deposits with other PGMs (besides possibly palladium) so the only viable lead now is on "Ferroan Platinum", but I've been too busy lately to chase it.  I'll get back on the case eventually, I hope.

As for what could be found...  For all we know, there could vast fields of pure platinum and native aluminum along with diamonds the size of soccer balls or even naturally-formed buckyballs down near the mohorovicic discontinuity, far deeper than even the deepest modern mineshaft.  Does that mean we should model every theoretical possibility?

Pardon my catching up, I hadn't been on for a while.  I like the alchemy idea, and maybe with a research(tech tree) for the fortress.

"And since I have found several sources stating that platinum never occurs naturally in pure form"

 Do you put your trust in articles you read from the web, or mineralogists actually reporting(and selling) nuggets of the pure metal?  While no metal is 100.00~0% pure there is a set standard by which a precious metal must meet before it can be called pure. 

Also the articles are being misread.  Example being "Platinum is usually alloyed with several per cent of iron and with smaller amounts of iridium, osmium" does not mean that "All Platinum nuggets contain Iron, iridium, and osmium".   Native Platinum is not the same mineral as IridPlatinum, Ferroan Platinum, or Polyxene in the same way that Native Silver is not the same mineral as Horn Silver, or Tetrahedrite.

Placer Deposits contain Platinum with the other Platinum Group Elements, and sometimes Gold and Silver, and usually not any Iron.  Polyxene is the most common type of platinum discovered in a placer deposit,  IridPlatinum is another.

Ferroan Platinum does not occur in a placer deposit, it is found in the same environment as iron ores, that's because it is an iron ore with Platinum added.  It can be mostly Platinum or mostly Iron, it may contain trace impurities, but it can also be almost pure Iron/Platinum the purity attested to by an electron microscope not being able to detect any iridium/osmium.  I admit it is an assumption that impurities that cannot be discovered with an electron microprobe will not affect the crystal structure of the rest of the platinum in the nuggets;  However that would also hold true for every metal in the game.  Also there is another FerroPlatinum ore FerroPlatinum being the name of a group the two belong to.

That doesn't mean there isn't a place for "Platina" in the game as Native Platinum is indeed extremely rare.  So rare that one would have to introduce many unsmeltable stones to the same environment.  or maybe make those stones useable with your alchemy system.

EDIT:
I just remembered Toady removed Native Platinum from the game once before, when he removed its environment - alluvial deposits.  One of the reasons it's not so rare in the game now is he added it back in to enviroments it doesn't occur in.  During that time I modded in Alluvium, Eluvium, Fluvium, and Tillite as pseudo-minerals that Native Platinum could occur in.

The reason I brought that up is that Alluvium and Eluvium count as placer deposits, while Fluvium and Tillite count as secondary deposits.  Native Platinum can be made to occur in Fluvium and Tillite Veins, while "Platina"
or Polyxene and IridPlatinum could be made to occur in Alluvium and Eluvium veins or layers; and removed from every other place they occur in the game.

[Mr. Palau]

I don't see exactly what your point is. All of your sources point to platinum being found with impurities of other platinum group metals as a general rule, except wikipedia but our discussion has advanced beyon the point were that is a reliable source. Then you just say you linked us to were you can buy a pure platinum nugget, but it is .6cm x .6cm x .4cm. That's hardly enough to make a necklace out of, let alone furniture. Also that nugget looks like it has been cut and proccessed, nature doesn't normally create a .6cm x .6cm x .4cm pure platinum nuggets with entirelly straight lines.

Well, I figured that for vanilla it'd be best to throw in the Pt/Pb separation process into the same reaction for simplicity's sake.  After all, there's already plenty of steps in smelting iron etc. that are handwaved (not to mention galena smelting).  As for the number of bars, why three instead of four like regular ore?  It'd be more intuitive to keep the numbers consistent, I'd think.

I made it 3 because when it was seperated out you would end up with decimal units of bars. If you want one reaction, it should be 1 platina ore, 1 galena ore, and 1 flux stone, into 1 platinum bar and 1 lead bar. The flux would just be thrown out as I mentioned before.

[Tarran]

I don't know if someone is changing the wikipedia article back and forth since it is user editable so i'll add another source.

From what I've found while searching the history, no, nobody appears to be changing it back and fourth.

[Arkenstone]

To summarise; just because platinum is by and large extracted from relatively impure desposits does not mean that purer desposits couldn't be nor haven't been found.

The point is if they have been found, all my research has yet to turn up a record of it.  And since I have found several sources stating that platinum never occurs naturally in pure form, that's what I'm going with.  The only trick is figuring out if any of the impure forms would be processable by dwarven science.  I've ruled out deposits with other PGMs (besides possibly palladium) so the only viable lead now is on "Ferroan Platinum", but I've been too busy lately to chase it.  I'll get back on the case eventually, I hope.

As for what could be found...  For all we know, there could vast fields of pure platinum and native aluminum along with diamonds the size of soccer balls or even naturally-formed buckyballs down near the mohorovicic discontinuity, far deeper than even the deepest modern mineshaft.  Does that mean we should model every theoretical possibility?

Pardon my catching up, I hadn't been on for a while.  I like the alchemy idea, and maybe with a research(tech tree) for the fortress.

"And since I have found several sources stating that platinum never occurs naturally in pure form"

 Do you put your trust in articles you read from the web, or mineralogists actually reporting(and selling) nuggets of the pure metal? 

Um...

If I didn't know better I'd think you were being sarcastic.  The answer seems blatantly obvious to me.

Also the articles are being misread.  Example being "Platinum is usually alloyed with several per cent of iron and with smaller amounts of iridium, osmium" does not mean that "All Platinum nuggets contain Iron, iridium, and osmium".

You're right, it doesn't; it means most platinum is.

I would be more than happy to suggest multiple ores of platinum, but sources detailing the different varieties of platinum ores and their occurrences have been rather scarce of late.  If you could find one, I would be most grateful and work the relevant data in immediately.

Until such a point, however, necessity forces one to generalize to the most common cases.


Since Sardice found a Pt purification process that fits within the tech level, the debate over the natural purity of platinum ores seems more or less moot at this point.  I'd think that it'd be best to lump all native platinum under one stone, which must be purified using "Thomas Cock's Platinum Process" (the best name I could find for the one described in the book) or alloyed with gold (the only other utilization evidenced -however sketchily).

Unless, of course, more evidence can be found placing nearly-pure platinum as common enough under certain conditions to warrant inclusion, at which point the debate shifts to how to properly represent this in DF.

Spoiler: A side note (click to show/hide)

or maybe make those stones useable with your alchemy system.

Just as clarification: I am in no way suggesting or endorsing in this thread any sort of alchemy system to be put into the game.  I only said that the chemical process which was the only way to refine platinum found at the time would fall under the category of "alchemy", not "smelting".

I don't see exactly what your point is. All of your sources point to platinum being found with impurities of other platinum group metals as a general rule, except wikipedia but our discussion has advanced beyon the point were that is a reliable source. Then you just say you linked us to were you can buy a pure platinum nugget, but it is .6cm x .6cm x .4cm. That's hardly enough to make a necklace out of, let alone furniture. Also that nugget looks like it has been cut and proccessed, nature doesn't normally create a .6cm x .6cm x .4cm pure platinum nuggets with entirelly straight lines.

Well, I figured that for vanilla it'd be best to throw in the Pt/Pb separation process into the same reaction for simplicity's sake.  After all, there's already plenty of steps in smelting iron etc. that are handwaved (not to mention galena smelting).  As for the number of bars, why three instead of four like regular ore?  It'd be more intuitive to keep the numbers consistent, I'd think.

I made it 3 because when it was seperated out you would end up with decimal units of bars. If you want one reaction, it should be 1 platina ore, 1 galena ore, and 1 flux stone, into 1 platinum bar and 1 lead bar. The flux would just be thrown out as I mentioned before.

No, I mean why not ( 1 platina + 1 galena + 1 flux = 4 platinum + 4 lead ) ?

(Oh, and yes they do form cubic shapes like that; it's a platinum crystal.)

I don't know if someone is changing the wikipedia article back and forth since it is user editable so i'll add another source.

From what I've found while searching the history, no, nobody appears to be changing it back and fourth.

This is why I haven't even read the wikipedia article on Pt since I started this thread.  Not only is it an unreliable source, sometimes it can be self-conflicting.


Lastly, I've done an update of the OP with the newfound information.  I may or may not carry on with a general cleanup.

[Courtesy Arloban]

Pardon my catching up, I hadn't been on for a while.  I like the alchemy idea, and maybe with a research(tech tree) for the fortress.

"And since I have found several sources stating that platinum never occurs naturally in pure form"

 Do you put your trust in articles you read from the web, or mineralogists actually reporting(and selling) nuggets of the pure metal? 

Um...

If I didn't know better I'd think you were being sarcastic.  The answer seems blatantly obvious to me.

I was; and it is.  Here is an article on the web I had prepared when I wrote that: http://www.greatdreams.com/reptlan/rhneg.htm

[Mr. Palau]

I don't see exactly what your point is. All of your sources point to platinum being found with impurities of other platinum group metals as a general rule, except wikipedia but our discussion has advanced beyon the point were that is a reliable source. Then you just say you linked us to were you can buy a pure platinum nugget, but it is .6cm x .6cm x .4cm. That's hardly enough to make a necklace out of, let alone furniture. Also that nugget looks like it has been cut and proccessed, nature doesn't normally create a .6cm x .6cm x .4cm pure platinum nuggets with entirelly straight lines.

Well, I figured that for vanilla it'd be best to throw in the Pt/Pb separation process into the same reaction for simplicity's sake.  After all, there's already plenty of steps in smelting iron etc. that are handwaved (not to mention galena smelting).  As for the number of bars, why three instead of four like regular ore?  It'd be more intuitive to keep the numbers consistent, I'd think.

I made it 3 because when it was seperated out you would end up with decimal units of bars. If you want one reaction, it should be 1 platina ore, 1 galena ore, and 1 flux stone, into 1 platinum bar and 1 lead bar. The flux would just be thrown out as I mentioned before.

No, I mean why not ( 1 platina + 1 galena + 1 flux = 4 platinum + 4 lead ) ?

(Oh, and yes they do form cubic shapes like that; it's a platinum crystal.)
[/quote]
(my bad then.) Well if one ore of a metal = one bar of a metal when smelted, as is the norm for the game, then 1 platina ore= 1 platinum bar and 1 galena ore= 1 lead bar. The flux would be absorbed by the reaction. I don't see why 1 platinum ore = 4 platinum bars when most other ores = 1 bar.

[Manveru Taurënér]

(my bad then.) Well if one ore of a metal = one bar of a metal when smelted, as is the norm for the game, then 1 platina ore= 1 platinum bar and 1 galena ore= 1 lead bar. The flux would be absorbed by the reaction. I don't see why 1 platinum ore = 4 platinum bars when most other ores = 1 bar.

1 ore = 4 bars since the minecart update

[Mr. Palau]

(my bad then.) Well if one ore of a metal = one bar of a metal when smelted, as is the norm for the game, then 1 platina ore= 1 platinum bar and 1 galena ore= 1 lead bar. The flux would be absorbed by the reaction. I don't see why 1 platinum ore = 4 platinum bars when most other ores = 1 bar.

1 ore = 4 bars since the minecart update

Wow sorry, I haven't gotten that far in the game I started since the update. And did not read the dev log. So yeah lets go one - four.

[Courtesy Arloban]

I don't see exactly what your point is. All of your sources point to platinum being found with impurities of other platinum group metals as a general rule, except wikipedia but our discussion has advanced beyon the point were that is a reliable source. Then you just say you linked us to were you can buy a pure platinum nugget, but it is .6cm x .6cm x .4cm. That's hardly enough to make a necklace out of, let alone furniture. Also that nugget looks like it has been cut and proccessed, nature doesn't normally create a .6cm x .6cm x .4cm pure platinum nuggets with entirelly straight lines.

Well, I figured that for vanilla it'd be best to throw in the Pt/Pb separation process into the same reaction for simplicity's sake.  After all, there's already plenty of steps in smelting iron etc. that are handwaved (not to mention galena smelting).  As for the number of bars, why three instead of four like regular ore?  It'd be more intuitive to keep the numbers consistent, I'd think.

I made it 3 because when it was seperated out you would end up with decimal units of bars. If you want one reaction, it should be 1 platina ore, 1 galena ore, and 1 flux stone, into 1 platinum bar and 1 lead bar. The flux would just be thrown out as I mentioned before.

I posted those sources to be fair I had previously posted links to mindat, and other scientific sources that say yes platinum can be found pure, which led to links where you can buy a pure platinum nugget.

I apologize to everyone who points out how small it is, it's just that not every metal comes in huge boulder sizes like gold does! http://www.akmining.com/mine/nuggets.htm http://www.blackcatmining.com/reference/largest-nugget.cfm  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic

[Vattic]

The main issue with such small amounts is that it's not easily represented in game. Would you have to process a huge amount of rock to get enough to make a bar? It doesn't seem right to represent such small nuggets with enough to make a throne out of.

[Mr. Palau]

I don't see exactly what your point is. All of your sources point to platinum being found with impurities of other platinum group metals as a general rule, except wikipedia but our discussion has advanced beyon the point were that is a reliable source. Then you just say you linked us to were you can buy a pure platinum nugget, but it is .6cm x .6cm x .4cm. That's hardly enough to make a necklace out of, let alone furniture. Also that nugget looks like it has been cut and proccessed, nature doesn't normally create a .6cm x .6cm x .4cm pure platinum nuggets with entirelly straight lines.

I posted those sources to be fair. I had previously posted links to mindat, and other scientific sources that say yes platinum can be found pure, which led to links where you can buy a pure platinum nugget.

I apologize to everyone who points out how small it is, it's just that not every metal comes in huge boulder sizes like gold does! http://www.akmining.com/mine/nuggets.htm http://www.blackcatmining.com/reference/largest-nugget.cfm  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic

Okey, here are some of your sources from this page and quotes from them.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/platinum.aspx, (from extraction section)Extraction "The major challenge in obtaining pure platinum is separating it from other platinum metals. The first step in this process is to dissolve the mixture in aqua regia. Platinum dissolves in aqua regia, and other platinum metals do not."
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/464081/platinum-Pt, (from the third paragraph)"The ordinary variety of native platinum is called polyxene; it is 80 percent to 90 percent platinum, with 3 percent to 11 percent iron, plus the other platinum metals, and gold, copper, and nickel. For mineralogical properties, see native element (table). Platinum is also found in the very rare native alloy platiniridium. Platinum occurs combined with arsenic as sperrylite (PtAs2) in the copper–nickel-mining district near Sudbury, Ont., and with sulfur as cooperite (PtS) in the Transvaal. (For information about the mining, recovery, and production of platinum, see platinum processing.)"

These clearly contradict platinum commonly being found as a pure metal.