Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Courtesy Arloban]

I would also point out your natural pure platinum crystal has dimensions of .6 cm by .6 cm by .4 cm. 

That's not an ore deposit, it's a pebble. 

These arguments for platinum are getting increasingly ridiculous.  The best arguments that have been offered reduce down to "D&D did it, so it's totally realistic,"  "It's already in the game, so you can't take something out of the game once it's already in (nevermind the broken economy, half-implemented mountainhomes and dark fortresses, the cave-in system, underground rivers, chasms, guild masters, or some other things I can't think of at the moment, when something goes into DF, it never comes out)," "it's better to have metals that don't do anything than it is to have metals that can be used for something," and now, "if you remove platinum, you have to remove dwarves, because they're unrealistic". 

Toady just put in the real values for densities, as best Uristocrat could research them, for the real materials that are in the game because the real materials are treated realistically.  Toady also put in real animals as faithfully as he could given his time constraints when they were the donation drive winners.  Toady also put in Peach Faced Lovebird-Men, because in his fantasy world, anthropomorphic animal-men exist as a fantasy element. 

Toady treats the real things seriously and as realistically as possible not in spite of the fantasy elements, but because adding realism into the game makes the whole game feel more real and relatable, even when they involve dwarves swinging candy axes at a vicious marauding Peach Faced Lovebird Man.

You have a weird way of picking out the best arguments for keeping in a metal that
1. exists
2. was used
3. is used in the game

Out of that you rebut me with D&D which I never mentioned, so if the D&D argument was so much better than mine, why are you responding to my post?  In fact if the arguments for platinum are so ridiculous, why feel the need to respond at all?

That's not an ore deposit, it's a pebble.

You're right it's not the ore deposit it's a sample, the ore deposit that came from is a mine in Russia, where they produce-- [In the central depression of the massif located alluvial placier, which is in operation since 1984 with PGE resources ~60 tons. Last time this placier producing ~5 tons of PGM per year.]http://www.mindat.org/loc-4435.html

[Courtesy Arloban]

I gave you an example of iron with platinum impurities, and you responded with how they smelt platinum from sulfides today.  That's also exactly how they smelt iron ore today as well, so I guess no iron ore is possible, bummer.

Well, to be fair, the process used to extract the Platinum from sulfides is likely very similiar to what you would use to extract it from iron. You could simply melt the iron to get a group of Platinum metels, but to seperate the Platinum from the rest of the group would require an advanced chemical process, as described in his link.

I would also point out your natural pure platinum crystal has dimensions of .6 cm by .6 cm by .4 cm. 

That's not an ore deposit, it's a pebble. 

In that case it would be almost impossible to seperate the platinum from the ore, oyu would just lose it in the molten iron and forget all about it. Unless you already knew about it's properties, then you would be like "OMG Platinum!" and dip your hand into molten iron to pull it out. Like an respectable Dwarf.

Honestly, so far as I'm understanding the argument here, it could all be solved by making the minerals less common, and making sure Native Platinum only ever occured in SMALL_CLUSTER formations.  Because these minerals do occur in their raw forms in nature, and DF only has the ability so simulate either ores or the real-deal.

And eliminating Aluminium, and reducing the value of Platinum to below silver.

FerroPlatinum doesn't contain other Platinum group elements as impurities, it's all Iron and Platinum, likewise with the iron ores where the only impurity is platinum.  I do not know why that is, maybe they don't work well with iron.

I've wanted to know for some time, why do we have seperate materials for what is supposed to be pure native metals anyways?

[runlvlzero]

I would also like to point out that the OP and many in this thread make severe assumptions about pre industrial technology and metalurgy. As well as organization and government.

There are places in the middle east, that date prior to "A.D." Were there are "paper" records of entire civilizations.

The Japanese have had very advanced metallurgy for a long time. I'm sure there are other anomalous groups throughout history.

I would agree that platinum is kinda worthless before the modern age, from a materiel and engineering standpoint.

But I also tend to agree, that Dwarf Fortress is not, and never will be an accurate history lesson (lets hope not)...

I say keep aluminum and platinum for !FUN!. And also to troll all the science dictators about...

If you want to remove those metals, its fairly easy to edit them out of the raws, so don't force it on the rest of the community.

There are, and may be other simulations were the goal is accuracy according to a western mainstream historic point of view. Civilization comes to mind. I think dwarf fortress is "High" fantasy in the lines of Everquest, DnD, and Tolkien.

Further more, I say keep the fantasy and B.S. pseudoscience in DF. Its bad enough we have a political cartel on "real science" and no one can ever agree on one thing. It's already been pointed out that most of the density values updated for materials are "comprimises" well, researched, well thought out, but far from accurate.

[Jeoshua]

I've wanted to know for some time, why do we have seperate materials for what is supposed to be pure native metals anyways?

Native metals are there so they can be found in their pure forms, like Gold, Silver, Iron, and yes even Aluminum and Platinum, are in nature.  Having them as a separate object allows their frequency and environment to be tweaked, in case someone has an issue with where they occur.

Plus, I don't think most metals work when they're in boulder form, they must be in bar form to do anything.  So anything workable must have an [ORE:x] tag.  That's kind of an oversight.  Sure they need some working but I'd hardly call Native Gold deposits an "Ore"

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd like to apologise in advance for taking NW_Kohaku's rebuttal from her.

-snip-

You have a weird way of picking out the best arguments for keeping in a metal that
1. exists
2. was used
3. is used in the game

Out of that you rebutt me with D&D which I never mentioned, so if the D&D argument was so much better than mine, why are you responding to my post?  In fact if the arguments for platinum are so ridiculous, why feel the need to respond at all?

That's not an ore deposit, it's a pebble.

You're right it's not the ore deposit it's a sample, the ore deposit that came from is a mine in Russia, where they produce-- [In the central depression of the massif located alluvial placier, which is in operation since 1984 with PGE resources ~60 tons. Last time this placier producing ~5 tons of PGM per year.]http://www.mindat.org/loc-4435.html

Alright. Yes, the metal exists. No, it doesn't seem it could have been smelted at the time limit set by Toady. It was used; it just wasn't used by the cut-off. And maybe it was used, somewhere in the world, but I doubt it was used as more than a pretty stone (thanks to Arkenstone and the others for spreading their research, BTW). And that's how dwarves should use it--as a stone. Maybe platina (like Arkenstone suggested) should be kept, though; I can see that. Maybe it would have all the funcionality of platinum, maybe not. And NW_Kohaku posted in the post you quoted, as part of your quote several reasons why it doesn't matter that platinum is already in the game--Toady's removed stuff far more important that platinum before.




Alright, here's a compromise solution I've got.
1. Platinum is renamed to "platina."
2. Platina is assumed to be pretty enough that dwarves will value it at current platinum's values, as well as its current uses.
3. Platina will be able to be alloyed with gold into white gold, or something else if a better name pops up.
4. Aluminum hasn't been discussed for a while, so except maybe for the occasional single-tile cluster of (unsmeltable) native aluminum, aluminum can be removed.
This makes concessions to both those who want realism and those who want platinum. Those in the first camp can reduce platina's material value and ability to be smelted, while those in the second can change platina's name. It seems likely to, if not be accepted by everyone, at least make everyone equally irritated. And what more can you ask for?

[runlvlzero]

I'd like to apologise in advance for taking NW_Kohaku's rebuttal from her.

-snip-

You have a weird way of picking out the best arguments for keeping in a metal that
1. exists
2. was used
3. is used in the game

Out of that you rebutt me with D&D which I never mentioned, so if the D&D argument was so much better than mine, why are you responding to my post?  In fact if the arguments for platinum are so ridiculous, why feel the need to respond at all?

That's not an ore deposit, it's a pebble.

You're right it's not the ore deposit it's a sample, the ore deposit that came from is a mine in Russia, where they produce-- [In the central depression of the massif located alluvial placier, which is in operation since 1984 with PGE resources ~60 tons. Last time this placier producing ~5 tons of PGM per year.]http://www.mindat.org/loc-4435.html

Alright. Yes, the metal exists. No, it doesn't seem it could have been smelted at the time limit set by Toady. It was used; it just wasn't used by the cut-off. And maybe it was used, somewhere in the world, but I doubt it was used as more than a pretty stone (thanks to Arkenstone and the others for spreading their research, BTW). And that's how dwarves should use it--as a stone. Maybe platina (like Arkenstone suggested) should be kept, though; I can see that. Maybe it would have all the funcionality of platinum, maybe not. And NW_Kohaku posted in the post you quoted, as part of your quote several reasons why it doesn't matter that platinum is already in the game--Toady's removed stuff far more important that platinum before.




Alright, here's a compromise solution I've got.
1. Platinum is renamed to "platina."
2. Platina is assumed to be pretty enough that dwarves will value it at current platinum's values, as well as its current uses.
3. Platina will be able to be alloyed with gold into white gold, or something else if a better name pops up.
4. Aluminum hasn't been discussed for a while, so except maybe for the occasional single-tile cluster of (unsmeltable) native aluminum, aluminum can be removed.
This makes concessions to both those who want realism and those who want platinum. Those in the first camp can reduce platina's material value and ability to be smelted, while those in the second can change platina's name. It seems likely to, if not be accepted by everyone, at least make everyone equally irritated. And what more can you ask for?

If toady set 1400's medieval Europe as "The Cannon" of dwarf fortress I could see this as an equitable solution. TBH I didn't know if toady was very intense on historical accuracy. I figured he was more interested in simulating physics and economy in a fun "fantasy" environment. In that vein, it would make sense to alter the metals, could always mod in "alchemical" means of producing more blah blah blah...

Though I do see dwarvish physics notwithstanding ... surely the dwarves are masters of the earth? I'm surprised they don't have more advanced metallurgy and such. In the end it is up to toady to produce the vanilla experience, and us to create our own flavors of what we think should be.

[Tarran]

But I also tend to agree, that Dwarf Fortress is not, and never will be an accurate history lesson (lets hope not)...

Yes. Please.

I can handle certain kinds of realism, but realism removing something simply for the sake of realism in a fantasy game is too much for me, no matter how useless it is, when it can be removed much more easily than it can be added.

Alright, here's a compromise solution I've got.
1. Platinum is renamed to "platina."
2. Platina is assumed to be pretty enough that dwarves will value it at current platinum's values, as well as its current uses.
3. Platina will be able to be alloyed with gold into white gold, or something else if a better name pops up.
4. Aluminum hasn't been discussed for a while, so except maybe for the occasional single-tile cluster of (unsmeltable) native aluminum, aluminum can be removed.
This makes concessions to both those who want realism and those who want platinum. Those in the first camp can reduce platina's material value and ability to be smelted, while those in the second can change platina's name. It seems likely to, if not be accepted by everyone, at least make everyone equally irritated. And what more can you ask for?

2: Does that mean still allowing pure "Platina" bars as metal?
4: I feel like this is too much of a concession from those who still want Aluminum as-is.

[Courtesy Arloban]

I'd like to apologise in advance for taking NW_Kohaku's rebuttal from her.

-snip-

You have a weird way of picking out the best arguments for keeping in a metal that
1. exists
2. was used
3. is used in the game

Out of that you rebutt me with D&D which I never mentioned, so if the D&D argument was so much better than mine, why are you responding to my post?  In fact if the arguments for platinum are so ridiculous, why feel the need to respond at all?

That's not an ore deposit, it's a pebble.

You're right it's not the ore deposit it's a sample, the ore deposit that came from is a mine in Russia, where they produce-- [In the central depression of the massif located alluvial placier, which is in operation since 1984 with PGE resources ~60 tons. Last time this placier producing ~5 tons of PGM per year.]http://www.mindat.org/loc-4435.html

Alright. Yes, the metal exists. No, it doesn't seem it could have been smelted at the time limit set by Toady. It was used; it just wasn't used by the cut-off. And maybe it was used, somewhere in the world, but I doubt it was used as more than a pretty stone (thanks to Arkenstone and the others for spreading their research, BTW). And that's how dwarves should use it--as a stone. Maybe platina (like Arkenstone suggested) should be kept, though; I can see that. Maybe it would have all the funcionality of platinum, maybe not. And NW_Kohaku posted in the post you quoted, as part of your quote several reasons why it doesn't matter that platinum is already in the game--Toady's removed stuff far more important that platinum before.




Alright, here's a compromise solution I've got.
1. Platinum is renamed to "platina."
2. Platina is assumed to be pretty enough that dwarves will value it at current platinum's values, as well as its current uses.
3. Platina will be able to be alloyed with gold into white gold, or something else if a better name pops up.
4. Aluminum hasn't been discussed for a while, so except maybe for the occasional single-tile cluster of (unsmeltable) native aluminum, aluminum can be removed.
This makes concessions to both those who want realism and those who want platinum. Those in the first camp can reduce platina's material value and ability to be smelted, while those in the second can change platina's name. It seems likely to, if not be accepted by everyone, at least make everyone equally irritated. And what more can you ask for?

I wasn't saying that it was in the game, I was saying it is used in the game.  However, if more important things have been removed then magma that does not kill you can go too.  Magma does not just kill you if you touch it, if you are in an underground chamber with magma the radiated heat will burn you before you would get a chance to touch it!
And yes platinum was used long before the cut-off date.  The original beleif was that what was used was some impure natural alloy, and even I beleived that, but it's false!  Pure Platinum deposits exist, not just in russia, but all over the world, and ancient people used it, so there is no reason to remove native platinum, and it could be made rarer.  You can include "platina" or many varieties of "platina" and it would lower the chances of getting platinum.

nevermind the broken economy, half-implemented mountainhomes and dark fortresses, the cave-in system, underground rivers, chasms, guild masters, or some other things I can't think of at the moment, when something goes into DF, it never comes out)," "it's better to have metals that don't do anything than it is to have metals that can be used for something," and now, "if you remove platinum, you have to remove dwarves, because they're unrealistic". 

broken economy - Toady plans to put back in
mountainhomes and dark fortresses - same
cave-in-system - actually is already back in
underground river - I don't know, but I would like their return
chasms - also is back in
guild masters - maybe not in the same form but, he plans to reintroduce the guilds in some manner

[Jeoshua]

Despite Bauxite being unsmeltable with Dwarven High Tech, I still feel rather odd about the very idea of eliminating an element that makes up 70-80% of every known terrestrial planet's crust.  It's THAT common.

[GreatWyrmGold]

-snip-

I wasn't saying that it was in the game, I was saying it is used in the game.  However, if more important things have been removed then magma that does not kill you can go too.  Magma does not just kill you if you touch it, if you are in an underground chamber with magma the radiated heat will burn you before you would get a chance to touch it!
And yes platinum was used long before the cut-off date.  The original beleif was that what was used was some impure natural alloy, and even I beleived that, but it's false!  Pure Platinum deposits exist, not just in russia, but all over the world, and ancient people used it, so there is no reason to remove native platinum, and it could be made rarer.  You can include "platina" or many varieties of "platina" and it would lower the chances of getting platinum.

Okay, first off, I don't believe I've seen any suggested evidence that platinum was smelted by pre-1400s humans that wasn't disputed by forum-goers who, frankly, in my mind are experienced enough to have a bit more weight given to their claims than you.
Second off: Platinum is used in the game. So was the old dwarven economy. So were the guild-masters. Unless they've been very well hidden, all of those were removed. Any arguments based on platinum already being in DF are horribly faulty, to the point of not being there except in the minds of a few people clinging to hopes of keeping platinum as-is.

And to those wondering about my image of platina-smelting: It would be pure platina, although perhaps not pure platinum. I'm not sure if that makes sense; if not, ignore it. I imagine platina as being more restricted in its uses that current platinum; I remember someone (Arkenstone?) saying that platinum's high melting point would have precluded easy metalcrafting with it, so I suppose it would only be forgeable into furniture and architecture, barring moods. White gold would probably be as functional as gold.

[Arkenstone]

If you want to remove those metals, its fairly easy to edit them out of the raws, so don't force it on the rest of the community.

Force it?  How could I possibly force anything on the community?  The only one who can come close is Toady, and as you pointed out those who disagree can easily fix it in their games.

I am expressing my opinion of something I think should be changed in vanilla DF, and putting up supporting evidence of why I think it should be so.  Your objection and reasons why have also been noted, and then Toady will decide which he thinks is best.

For this reason, I will now cease to argue anything about 'game balance', 'rule of fun/cool', 'acceptable breaks from reality', 'if one thing unrealistic then nothing needs be realistic', or any such unresolvable topics.  I shall henceforth only defend my argument that platinum as it is currently represented is unrealistic, and discuss alternative (and more realistic) ways it could be included.

I would also like to point out that the OP and many in this thread make severe assumptions about pre industrial technology and metalurgy.

Yes, I assume that they don't have access to large quantities of hydrochloric acid, among other advanced chemicals required to separate the platinum-group metals.

FerroPlatinum doesn't contain other Platinum group elements as impurities, it's all Iron and Platinum, likewise with the iron ores where the only impurity is platinum.  I do not know why that is, maybe they don't work well with iron.

I've wanted to know for some time, why do we have seperate materials for what is supposed to be pure native metals anyways?

I sure hope you have a cite for that one, as I find it hard to believe.

For your second statement, I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

You're right it's not the ore deposit it's a sample, the ore deposit that came from is a mine in Russia, where they produce-- [In the central depression of the massif located alluvial placier, which is in operation since 1984 with PGE resources ~60 tons. Last time this placier producing ~5 tons of PGM per year.]http://www.mindat.org/loc-4435.html

Seeing as that mine produces Platinum-Group metals I would assume that they are naturally alloyed together.  Indeed, I suspect that the crystal in-question is not pure platinum either, as the article didn't specify whilst other sources assert pure native platinum does not exist in nature.

Alright, here's a compromise solution I've got.
1. Platinum is renamed to "platina."
2. Platina is assumed to be pretty enough that dwarves will value it at current platinum's values, as well as its current uses.
3. Platina will be able to be alloyed with gold into white gold, or something else if a better name pops up.
4. Aluminum hasn't been discussed for a while, so except maybe for the occasional single-tile cluster of (unsmeltable) native aluminum, aluminum can be removed.
This makes concessions to both those who want realism and those who want platinum. Those in the first camp can reduce platina's material value and ability to be smelted, while those in the second can change platina's name. It seems likely to, if not be accepted by everyone, at least make everyone equally irritated. And what more can you ask for?

After much debate, I'm willing to concede on the price debate.  I've come to realize that dwarven knowledge, while not enough to refine platina, would certainly be enough to identify it as a metal distinct from any others.  At that point, the interplay of supply and demand could carry the price anywhere, although I still think a silver-level (or a generous gold-level) price is a good compromise.

Platina itself, however, is far too brittle to be used on its own; you'd have better luck with pig iron.  The platina-gold alloy, however, would be workable -perhaps even into weapons the way silver is.


As for aluminum: if it occurred at all in native from (larger than a few scattered flakes, that is) then it would be very easily smeltable and workable.  But it doesn't.  The only way it could be realistically included is as a value-2 (or value-3, if you insist) stone occurring with very low frequency in mudstone (maybe one or two related stones too) to represent a sample of stone with Al flakes in it.


EDIT:
OKAY, so the last five nina posts I haven't read yet.  I'll get to them though, don't worry.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I understand that platina isn't likely to be worked with, but my goal was to come up with a system for platinum that would neatly come to a sort of midpoint where everyone could concede a bit, not to make it 100% realistic.
And I'm a bit doubtful as to the ability to locate aluminum at all (aside from bauxite, of course).

[Courtesy Arloban]

-snip-

I wasn't saying that it was in the game, I was saying it is used in the game.  However, if more important things have been removed then magma that does not kill you can go too.  Magma does not just kill you if you touch it, if you are in an underground chamber with magma the radiated heat will burn you before you would get a chance to touch it!
And yes platinum was used long before the cut-off date.  The original beleif was that what was used was some impure natural alloy, and even I beleived that, but it's false!  Pure Platinum deposits exist, not just in russia, but all over the world, and ancient people used it, so there is no reason to remove native platinum, and it could be made rarer.  You can include "platina" or many varieties of "platina" and it would lower the chances of getting platinum.

Okay, first off, I don't believe I've seen any suggested evidence that platinum was smelted by pre-1400s humans that wasn't disputed by forum-goers who, frankly, in my mind are experienced enough to have a bit more weight given to their claims than you.
Second off: Platinum is used in the game. So was the old dwarven economy. So were the guild-masters. Unless they've been very well hidden, all of those were removed. Any arguments based on platinum already being in DF are horribly faulty, to the point of not being there except in the minds of a few people clinging to hopes of keeping platinum as-is.

And to those wondering about my image of platina-smelting: It would be pure platina, although perhaps not pure platinum. I'm not sure if that makes sense; if not, ignore it. I imagine platina as being more restricted in its uses that current platinum; I remember someone (Arkenstone?) saying that platinum's high melting point would have precluded easy metalcrafting with it, so I suppose it would only be forgeable into furniture and architecture, barring moods. White gold would probably be as functional as gold.

As I've pointed out you are using as an example, things Toady already plans to put back in the game.

I sure hope you have a cite for that one, as I find it hard to believe.

I already had in a previous post, but here it is again.
http://www.mindat.org/min-1509.html

[Arkenstone]

If toady set 1400's medieval Europe as "The Cannon" of dwarf fortress I could see this as an equitable solution. TBH I didn't know if toady was very intense on historical accuracy. I figured he was more interested in simulating physics and economy in a fun "fantasy" environment. In that vein, it would make sense to alter the metals, could always mod in "alchemical" means of producing more blah blah blah...

An alchemical means for producing pure platinum would not be out of the question.  I can imagine a 1400's alchemist would have access to all the chemicals necessary to purify platinum in his lab, or at least the ingredients thereof et cetera.  What he would not have is industrial quantities of these chemicals.

And yes platinum was used long before the cut-off date.  The original beleif was that what was used was some impure natural alloy, and even I beleived that, but it's false!  Pure Platinum deposits exist, not just in russia, but all over the world, and ancient people used it, so there is no reason to remove native platinum, and it could be made rarer.

I sure hope you have some form of evidence to back up such outlandish claims.

And to those wondering about my image of platina-smelting: It would be pure platina, although perhaps not pure platinum. I'm not sure if that makes sense; if not, ignore it. I imagine platina as being more restricted in its uses that current platinum; I remember someone (Arkenstone?) saying that platinum's high melting point would have precluded easy metalcrafting with it, so I suppose it would only be forgeable into furniture and architecture, barring moods. White gold would probably be as functional as gold.

1.) It doesn't.
2.) Platina is limited not because of its high melting point, which is shared with pure platinum (although it doesn't help), but by its immalleability.  You would not be able to make it into even a door, as it would fracture at your hammer blows.  Theoretically you could chisel it into shape, but that would be analogous to using the ore at the mason's shop.

Despite Bauxite being unsmeltable with Dwarven High Tech, I still feel rather odd about the very idea of eliminating an element that makes up 70-80% of every known terrestrial planet's crust.  It's THAT common.

I know.  It's one of mysteries of geology how something so common could never occur in a native form.

2: Does that mean still allowing pure "Platina" bars as metal?
4: I feel like this is too much of a concession from those who still want Aluminum as-is.

2) Platina bars may be necessary for technical reasons, at least until Toady updates how ores work.

4) I concur, there is no justification for including aluminum at all in my mind.

[Arkenstone]

I sure hope you have a cite for that one, as I find it hard to believe.

I already had in a previous post, but here it is again.
http://www.mindat.org/min-1509.html

Hm...  It does indeed appear to indicate an alloy of only iron and platinum -but I wonder if there might still be trace impurities that aren't listed on the empirical formula.  Information is sketchy, we must do more research.  I will admit this is a most intriguing piece of evidence though.