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[Ubiq]

Adamantine IS mithril. 

It may be based on the concept, but adamantine is clearly not the same thing as Tolkien's mithril. Mithril is silvery, extremely rare, and is reknowned for its malleablility. Adamantine is blue, guaranteed in every embark, and is highly ductile but absurdly rigid. If anything, platinum has a much better claim to mithril than adamantine in the current game and it's a common guess as to the metal Tolkien based mithril on in the first place.

However, if you were talking about a wholly different randomly-named metal in a fantasy game, then what I'd want is some sort of actual use for the metal.  I'd probably argue pretty heavily about the game balance of the stuff, as well.

Platinum and aluminum aren't really anything but more high-value trash, anyway.  I don't even notice them when they're gone, and when they do show up, I get angry that one of my "deep metals" was nothing more than worthless platinum.

Considering that we already have iron, copper, adamantine, steel, bronze, and bismuth bronze for military purposes along with silver as an additional weapon option, how many more "useful" metals do we need (a definition that I dispute anyway since I like having a non-alloy that falls between gold and adamantine in value)? The current amounts of adamantine basically render all other military metals irrelevant anyway the minute that you get an extraction system set up.

[Sadrice]

How is mithril malleable?  It is known for making good blades and armor, both uses would be severely compromised by malleability.  And who says tolkien based mithril on platinum?  Most of their properties are near opposites, with the only thing they have in common being that they're valuable and silvery, and all metals other than copper and gold are kinda silvery.

[Mrhappyface]

I honestly don't make any silver or copper weapons, since pure silver and copper stuff is pretty darn flimsy, and it seems a bit unrealistic to use silver warhammer when you steel ones.

[Courtesy Arloban]

I think most of mithrils weapon properties in tolkien come from the fact that it's enchanted and it's alloyed with steel.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel

  The weapons and armor made out of it are not made from pure "true-silver"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the Dwarves had their own secret name for it.

and the mithril name is vaugely ascribed to the alloy, "true-silver", and the ore. Ithildin is also an alloy, but not the same one the weapons and armor are made of, as it was only made by the nolder.

source-- wikipedia (reluctantly, as my other search results were of a celtic music band)

[NW_Kohaku]

It may be based on the concept, but adamantine is clearly not the same thing as Tolkien's mithril. Mithril is silvery, extremely rare, and is reknowned for its malleablility. Adamantine is blue, guaranteed in every embark, and is highly ductile but absurdly rigid. If anything, platinum has a much better claim to mithril than adamantine in the current game and it's a common guess as to the metal Tolkien based mithril on in the first place.

Amusingly enough, aluminum is closer to mithril.  It's an extremely lightweight metal that is nevertheless fairly rigid.  I remember a thread in this forum largely to that effect.

Considering that we already have iron, copper, adamantine, steel, bronze, and bismuth bronze for military purposes along with silver as an additional weapon option, how many more "useful" metals do we need (a definition that I dispute anyway since I like having a non-alloy that falls between gold and adamantine in value)? The current amounts of adamantine basically render all other military metals irrelevant anyway the minute that you get an extraction system set up.

So, we need to keep current useless metals that are basically the exact same thing as gold but slightly more valuable in terms of being useless vendor trash, HOWEVER, when we start talking about using a metal for something, you ask "why bother having any metal besides steel and adamantine?"

Double standard much?

I could ask what the point of bronze is if people can just get steel, by that token.  Hell, why have any metal besides steel at all? 

Besides the fact that I never use the candy unless I'm getting ready for the HFS (I consider it too good and kinda cheaty), and the fact that steel isn't necessarily assured, you can still differentiate the metals.  A new metal can have higher density but less of an edge than steel, or be in an in-between stage from steel to candy in terms of holding an edge and being fairly lightweight, but where you can get slightly more of it without having to risk opening the HFS. 

In fact, you could even make it largely inferior to anything but copper, and on an iron-less map, it would still have its uses. 

The mere fact that it's useful for any reason makes it superior to platinum as it stands, as it's unrealistic, worthless, and adds nothing to the game.

[Courtesy Arloban]

It has a use, I use it.  Actually platinum serves a purpose in a fantasy world.  For an adventurer who gathers more loot than they can carry, it's artificial value makes it a useful coin.  It has name recognition, so people expect it to be more valuable than gold.  It also makes a decent hammer  And more people would mod it in if removed than there are people who mod it out now, which would mean more work being wasted.  Making it harder to get would make it more fitting for its value.  However we do have magma smelters, and being in the same enclosed cavern as magma, much less directly above it is much less realistic.

EDIT:
Also since it has such a high melting point what your throwing away, as vendor trash, is a material you can make metal floodgates out of to hold back lava in your nobles rooms and be much admired by the noble.

EDIT:
Also looked on mindat and platinum is sometimes found with iron, which will melt leaving the platinum behind.
http://www.mindat.org/min-1509.html

[Arkenstone]

Question for the people who complain about the existence of Platinum and Aluminum in the game:

If the two metals had exactly the same properties, but were called, let's say, Mithril and Amazonium instead of Platinum and Aluminum. What then?

Then I'd say they're obviously made-up metals, and as such can have any properties the creator desires.  Although, I would still grumble about how much artistic license is being taken in the economic aspect if I didn't think its price properly reflected its usefulness uselessness.

The mere fact that it's useful for any reason makes it superior to platinum as it stands, as it's unrealistic, worthless, and adds nothing to the game.

Platinum is unrealistic in the setting, sure; but I wouldn't be so quick to judge platina.  It's still useful as a decorative metal, although not so much as gold.

[Niyazov]

Question for the people who complain about the existence of Platinum and Aluminum in the game:

If the two metals had exactly the same properties, but were called, let's say, Mithril and Amazonium instead of Platinum and Aluminum. What then?

Adamantine IS mithril. 

However, if you were talking about a wholly different randomly-named metal in a fantasy game, then what I'd want is some sort of actual use for the metal.  I'd probably argue pretty heavily about the game balance of the stuff, as well.

Platinum and aluminum aren't really anything but more high-value trash, anyway.  I don't even notice them when they're gone, and when they do show up, I get angry that one of my "deep metals" was nothing more than worthless platinum.

The only worth digging for in the deeps is flux, magma, and candy. Maybe gems. All the metals down there are trading trash.

What about cassiterite, bismuthinite and native silver? Galena provides silver if you don't have native silver or tetrahedrite, and it makes for superb catapult or stonefall trap ammo. If you need special colors you'll find rutile, realgar, cinnabar, cobaltite, pitchblende and kimberlite.

[Courtesy Arloban]

I read over this entire article three times and double checked every source, and caught some misconceptions.

Just because arkenstone has decided to dub native platinum "platina" in this article, does not mean that that's what they mean in the articles about the history of platinum.  Platina is where we derive the english word of platinum from, and is still what they call it in the spanish language.  Non pure platinum ore is named after the impurities it has in it. Iridplatinum is what they call Platinum with iridium.  Platinum is itself an impurity in other precious and ferric ores.  It can be smelted out of those ores with less than 1500's level technology, it's left behind when the other metals are smelted out.

There may not be a pure platinum ore, but it doesn't violate any known laws for it to exist.  Ancient South Americans alloyed platinum with gold, but they also alloyed copper with gold.  That doesn't mean pure copper didn't exist at the time.

I would sooner see magma smelters removed from the game than platinum, and it does seem like a common complaint against platinum is that it fills a slot you'd rather have filled with a more impossible substance to get like magma.  If platinum is removed from the game then magma has no business being a substance you can aquire.  Unlike admantine(which sounds like carbon nanotubes), magma is a real substance, and one that was definitely, not possible to control or even get close to in any previous century.

EDIT--
White Gold isn't really white, it's plated with platinum or more commonly nickel to make it appear that color.  If it was less valuable than gold, no one would bother as it could easily be passed off as gold.

EDIT--
I discovered Pure Platinum deposits do exist...http://webmineral.com/data/Platinum.shtml and http://www.fabreminerals.com/search_show.php?SECTION=RSFSU&CODE=TC16N9

You would be removing as too unrealistic a native metal that actually exists!http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AluminumChristmasTrees  Wikipedia managed to fool me as well this time!

[Arkenstone]

Just because arkenstone has decided to dub native platinum "platina" in this article, does not mean that that's what they mean in the articles about the history of platinum.  Platina is where we derive the english word of platinum from, and is still what they call it in the spanish language.  Non pure platinum ore is named after the impurities it has in it. Iridplatinum is what they call Platinum with iridium.

Platina:
  n.  Platinum, especially as found naturally in impure form.

I use the word "platina" because it is distinctly different from "platinum", such to lessen confusion.  As for "Iridplatinum", we might as well call hematite "Iron(III) Oxide", as it would be equally anachronistic a term; what with iridium not being isolated until 1803 (paragraph 2, sentence 4).

Platinum is itself an impurity in other precious and ferric ores.  It can be smelted out of those ores with less than 1500's level technology, it's left behind when the other metals are smelted out.

Spoiler: Mining and Concentrating (click to show/hide)

The major South African and Canadian deposits are exploited by underground mining. Virtually all platinum-group metals are recovered from copper or nickel sulfide minerals, which are concentrated by flotation separation. Smelting of the concentrate produces a matte that is leached of copper and nickel sulfides in an autoclave. The solid leach residue contains 15 to 20 percent platinum-group metals. Sometimes gravity separation is employed prior to flotation; this results in a concentrate containing up to 50 percent platinum metals, making smelting unnecessary.

Extraction and Refining

The separation chemistry of the platinum-group metals is among the most complex and challenging of metal separations. A brief description of procedures for isolating the platinum-group metals is set forth below, followed by descriptions of assaying and scrap-refining techniques.

Individual solubilization

The classical procedure for separating the platinum metals begins with a mineral concentrate obtained as described above. This concentrate is leached with aqua regia, which dissolves the platinum and palladium and leaves the other metals as solids in the leach residue. The platinum is precipitated from solution with ammonium chloride, and the resulting crude platinum salt is recovered by filtration and then heated to decompose it to a powdered metallic form. The metal is redissolved in aqua regia, then reprecipitated with ammonium chloride and calcined to pure metal. The palladium, which remained in solution when the platinum was precipitated, is now precipitated by the addition of ammonia. After the palladium salts are recovered by filtration, they are redissolved and reprecipitated to form a pure salt, and this is converted to metallic form, usually by chemical reduction with formic acid.

The residue left over from leaching the original mineral concentrate contains rhodium, iridium, ruthenium, and osmium. This is treated with molten sodium bisulfate to convert the rhodium to rhodium sulfate. The rhodium is then solubilized by water leaching, separated from the insolubles, and precipitated from solution by reduction with zinc powder. The crude rhodium metal product is converted to a soluble salt by treatment with chlorine and sodium chloride at high temperature, dissolved in water, precipitated with sodium nitrite, filtered, redissolved, and reprecipitated with ammonium chloride. This final precipitate is reduced to a pure metal powder.

The residue from rhodium sulfate leaching is fused with alkali nitrate salts to convert ruthenium to soluble sodium ruthenate. After filtration, the solution of sodium ruthenate is treated with chlorine gas to distill off the ruthenium as the volatile compound ruthenium tetroxide. The ruthenium-bearing distillate is then treated with reducing agents to precipitate the ruthenium as a fine metal powder. Osmium is recovered in a similar fashion, although, unlike ruthenium, it can also be recovered by distillation from acidic solutions.

The final residue is treated with sodium peroxide to convert iridium to a form soluble in hydrochloric acid, from which it can be precipitated with ammonium chloride and calcined to metal powder.

Simultaneous solubilization

Simultaneous solubilization of all platinum metals can be accomplished by fusing the mineral concentrate obtained from copper and nickel sulfide ores with aluminum metal, dissolving the aluminum, and treating the residue with hydrochloric acid and chlorine. This dissolves all platinum-group metals, which are subsequently separated by solvent extraction. The individual metal solutions are then treated by conventional techniques to recover the various metals in a pure state.

Consolidation

Irrespective of the chemical separation processes used, the platinum metals are recovered in a finely divided metallic powder form. They can be converted to massive metal form by electron-beam melting. The lower-melting-point metals palladium and platinum can be fused by induction melting techniques.

Now, I'm no expert but...  What part of that process seems doable with pre-1500's tech?

There may not be a pure platinum ore, but it doesn't violate any known laws for it to exist.  Ancient South Americans alloyed platinum with gold, but they also alloyed copper with gold.  That doesn't mean pure copper didn't exist at the time.

There is not pure platinum ore (paragraph 1, sentence 3).

I would sooner see magma smelters removed from the game than platinum, and it does seem like a common complaint against platinum is that it fills a slot you'd rather have filled with a more impossible substance to get like magma.  If platinum is removed from the game then magma has no business being a substance you can aquire.  Unlike admantine(which sounds like carbon nanotubes), magma is a real substance, and one that was definitely, not possible to control or even get close to in any previous century.

I care nothing for what 'slot' platinum may fill/'waste', although I admit I may be holding a double standard with magma.  The only way I can justify that is by saying for me fantasy magma in DF sounds cooler than realistic magma, while in my opinion realistic platinum/platina would be cooler than fantasy platinum.

White Gold isn't really white, it's plated with platinum or more commonly nickel to make it appear that color.  If it was less valuable than gold, no one would bother as it could easily be passed off as gold.

I understand that's what 'white gold' is in real life, but I couldn't find a better name for the gold-platina alloy.  If you come up with one, I'm all ears.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Courtesy Arloban: Magma has several purposes in the game. It's a weapon, it helps with forges and furnaces, it blocks off a bunch of adamantine, it fills volcanoes...
Meanwhile, platinum is more valuable than gold. Very important. Clearly comparable to the variety of uses magma has.

Also, comparing platinum to magma is missing another important point: Magma has a vital part in the DF sub-culture. Want to pull a Boatmurdered? Nope, sorry, our amazing-mechanic dwarves can't handle magma any more. Stupid comparison.

[Courtesy Arloban]

Just because arkenstone has decided to dub native platinum "platina" in this article, does not mean that that's what they mean in the articles about the history of platinum.  Platina is where we derive the english word of platinum from, and is still what they call it in the spanish language.  Non pure platinum ore is named after the impurities it has in it. Iridplatinum is what they call Platinum with iridium.

Platina:
  n.  Platinum, especially as found naturally in impure form.

I use the word "platina" because it is distinctly different from "platinum", such to lessen confusion.  As for "Iridplatinum", we might as well call hematite "Iron(III) Oxide", as it would be equally anachronistic a term; what with iridium not being isolated until 1803 (paragraph 2, sentence 4).

There is no misunderstanding there on my part,  The articles about the history of platinum are not using that freedict definition they are referring to the etymology of the name platinum.  I was not passing judgement on your using that name!  -------Material Removed---------

Platinum is itself an impurity in other precious and ferric ores.  It can be smelted out of those ores with less than 1500's level technology, it's left behind when the other metals are smelted out.

Spoiler: Mining and Concentrating (click to show/hide)

The major South African and Canadian deposits are exploited by underground mining. Virtually all platinum-group metals are recovered from copper or nickel sulfide minerals, which are concentrated by flotation separation. Smelting of the concentrate produces a matte that is leached of copper and nickel sulfides in an autoclave. The solid leach residue contains 15 to 20 percent platinum-group metals. Sometimes gravity separation is employed prior to flotation; this results in a concentrate containing up to 50 percent platinum metals, making smelting unnecessary.

Extraction and Refining

The separation chemistry of the platinum-group metals is among the most complex and challenging of metal separations. A brief description of procedures for isolating the platinum-group metals is set forth below, followed by descriptions of assaying and scrap-refining techniques.

Individual solubilization

The classical procedure for separating the platinum metals begins with a mineral concentrate obtained as described above. This concentrate is leached with aqua regia, which dissolves the platinum and palladium and leaves the other metals as solids in the leach residue. The platinum is precipitated from solution with ammonium chloride, and the resulting crude platinum salt is recovered by filtration and then heated to decompose it to a powdered metallic form. The metal is redissolved in aqua regia, then reprecipitated with ammonium chloride and calcined to pure metal. The palladium, which remained in solution when the platinum was precipitated, is now precipitated by the addition of ammonia. After the palladium salts are recovered by filtration, they are redissolved and reprecipitated to form a pure salt, and this is converted to metallic form, usually by chemical reduction with formic acid.

The residue left over from leaching the original mineral concentrate contains rhodium, iridium, ruthenium, and osmium. This is treated with molten sodium bisulfate to convert the rhodium to rhodium sulfate. The rhodium is then solubilized by water leaching, separated from the insolubles, and precipitated from solution by reduction with zinc powder. The crude rhodium metal product is converted to a soluble salt by treatment with chlorine and sodium chloride at high temperature, dissolved in water, precipitated with sodium nitrite, filtered, redissolved, and reprecipitated with ammonium chloride. This final precipitate is reduced to a pure metal powder.

The residue from rhodium sulfate leaching is fused with alkali nitrate salts to convert ruthenium to soluble sodium ruthenate. After filtration, the solution of sodium ruthenate is treated with chlorine gas to distill off the ruthenium as the volatile compound ruthenium tetroxide. The ruthenium-bearing distillate is then treated with reducing agents to precipitate the ruthenium as a fine metal powder. Osmium is recovered in a similar fashion, although, unlike ruthenium, it can also be recovered by distillation from acidic solutions.

The final residue is treated with sodium peroxide to convert iridium to a form soluble in hydrochloric acid, from which it can be precipitated with ammonium chloride and calcined to metal powder.

Simultaneous solubilization

Simultaneous solubilization of all platinum metals can be accomplished by fusing the mineral concentrate obtained from copper and nickel sulfide ores with aluminum metal, dissolving the aluminum, and treating the residue with hydrochloric acid and chlorine. This dissolves all platinum-group metals, which are subsequently separated by solvent extraction. The individual metal solutions are then treated by conventional techniques to recover the various metals in a pure state.

Consolidation

Irrespective of the chemical separation processes used, the platinum metals are recovered in a finely divided metallic powder form. They can be converted to massive metal form by electron-beam melting. The lower-melting-point metals palladium and platinum can be fused by induction melting techniques.

Now, I'm no expert but...  What part of that process seems doable with pre-1500's tech?

I gave you an example of iron with platinum impurities, and you responded with how they smelt platinum from sulfides today.  That's also exactly how they smelt iron ore today as well, so I guess no iron ore is possible, bummer.

There may not be a pure platinum ore, but it doesn't violate any known laws for it to exist.  Ancient South Americans alloyed platinum with gold, but they also alloyed copper with gold.  That doesn't mean pure copper didn't exist at the time.

There is not pure platinum ore (paragraph 1, sentence 3).

I would sooner see magma smelters removed from the game than platinum, and it does seem like a common complaint against platinum is that it fills a slot you'd rather have filled with a more impossible substance to get like magma.  If platinum is removed from the game then magma has no business being a substance you can aquire.  Unlike admantine(which sounds like carbon nanotubes), magma is a real substance, and one that was definitely, not possible to control or even get close to in any previous century.

I care nothing for what 'slot' platinum may fill/'waste', although I admit I may be holding a double standard with magma.  The only way I can justify that is by saying for me fantasy magma in DF sounds cooler than realistic magma, while in my opinion realistic platinum/platina would be cooler than fantasy platinum.

If you'll not the people above my message and below yours very much do care and they were whom that comment was directed to.  By the way it wasn't rhetorical, I'm literally saying that if you successfully convince Toady to remove Platinum, I'll petition him to take out magma as well.

White Gold isn't really white, it's plated with platinum or more commonly nickel to make it appear that color.  If it was less valuable than gold, no one would bother as it could easily be passed off as gold.

I understand that's what 'white gold' is in real life, but I couldn't find a better name for the gold-platina alloy.  If you come up with one, I'm all ears.

Courtesy Arloban: Magma has several purposes in the game. It's a weapon, it helps with forges and furnaces, it blocks off a bunch of adamantine, it fills volcanoes...
Meanwhile, platinum is more valuable than gold. Very important. Clearly comparable to the variety of uses magma has.

Also, comparing platinum to magma is missing another important point: Magma has a vital part in the DF sub-culture. Want to pull a Boatmurdered? Nope, sorry, our amazing-mechanic dwarves can't handle magma any more. Stupid comparison.

What a brilliant rebuttal, calling my comparison stupid! You completely changed my mind! http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SarcasmMode

Meanwhile, platinum is more valuable than gold.

It also helps keep that magma contained! And it's one of the rare ones that really would work for that purpose!


EDIT:
 I had promised myself that I wouldn't type what I typed in the section labeled -----Material Removed------
I broke that promise, I'm sorry I typed it.  I removed it in case Arkenstone hasn't seen it yet.

[NW_Kohaku]

I would also point out your natural pure platinum crystal has dimensions of .6 cm by .6 cm by .4 cm. 

That's not an ore deposit, it's a pebble. 

These arguments for platinum are getting increasingly ridiculous.  The best arguments that have been offered reduce down to "D&D did it, so it's totally realistic,"  "It's already in the game, so you can't take something out of the game once it's already in (nevermind the broken economy, half-implemented mountainhomes and dark fortresses, the cave-in system, underground rivers, chasms, guild masters, or some other things I can't think of at the moment, when something goes into DF, it never comes out)," "it's better to have metals that don't do anything than it is to have metals that can be used for something," and now, "if you remove platinum, you have to remove dwarves, because they're unrealistic". 

Toady just put in the real values for densities, as best Uristocrat could research them, for the real materials that are in the game because the real materials are treated realistically.  Toady also put in real animals as faithfully as he could given his time constraints when they were the donation drive winners.  Toady also put in Peach Faced Lovebird-Men, because in his fantasy world, anthropomorphic animal-men exist as a fantasy element. 

Toady treats the real things seriously and as realistically as possible not in spite of the fantasy elements, but because adding realism into the game makes the whole game feel more real and relatable, even when they involve dwarves swinging candy axes at a vicious marauding Peach Faced Lovebird Man.

[Jeoshua]

Is it just me, or has this stopped being a conversation and turned into a pissing match?

Honestly, so far as I'm understanding the argument here, it could all be solved by making the minerals less common, and making sure Native Platinum only ever occured in SMALL_CLUSTER formations.  Because these minerals do occur in their raw forms in nature, and DF only has the ability so simulate either ores or the real-deal.

But sure, make a federal case about it and get mad at each other.  Please.  Really brings us together as people and makes Toady want to accede to our requests when we get angry.

[Mr. Palau]

I gave you an example of iron with platinum impurities, and you responded with how they smelt platinum from sulfides today.  That's also exactly how they smelt iron ore today as well, so I guess no iron ore is possible, bummer.

Well, to be fair, the process used to extract the Platinum from sulfides is likely very similiar to what you would use to extract it from iron. You could simply melt the iron to get a group of Platinum metels, but to seperate the Platinum from the rest of the group would require an advanced chemical process, as described in his link.

I would also point out your natural pure platinum crystal has dimensions of .6 cm by .6 cm by .4 cm. 

That's not an ore deposit, it's a pebble. 

In that case it would be almost impossible to seperate the platinum from the ore, oyu would just lose it in the molten iron and forget all about it. Unless you already knew about it's properties, then you would be like "OMG Platinum!" and dip your hand into molten iron to pull it out. Like an respectable Dwarf.

Honestly, so far as I'm understanding the argument here, it could all be solved by making the minerals less common, and making sure Native Platinum only ever occured in SMALL_CLUSTER formations.  Because these minerals do occur in their raw forms in nature, and DF only has the ability so simulate either ores or the real-deal.

And eliminating Aluminium, and reducing the value of Platinum to below silver.