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[King Mir]

Yeah, but given the way Toady works, it will be the new merchants that inspire the changes in how trade agreements work.

[Ubiq]

This is why aluminum is usually made near hydroelectric dams, because that's where power is usually cheapest (since it's functionally powered by gravity, there is no fuel cost for the powerplant), so you find things like Alcoa built around the places the Tennessee Valley Authority built all their dams.

As a local, I feel the need to point out that Alcoa's Maryville facilities actually predate the establishment of TVA by several decades. Now, they did both use the Little Tennessee for the reason that it was a handy source of previously unexploited energy production, but Alcoa being in the heart of TVA territory was not actually a deliberate choice on their part.

[Jeoshua]

More a supply and demand thing, eh?  The local industry needed lots of power, so why not build the power plants right there and get paid the big bucks?


Reguardless of all this, I would like to refer to exhibit A:

Code: [Select]

an ore of aluminum, but through a too-advanced process, in-game as the source of the corundum gemstones (ruby and sapphire)
bauxite melts around 2000C, so it's not practical to smelt it for aluminum (magma only goes up to 1300-1400)
[INORGANIC:BAUXITE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STONE_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:bauxite][DISPLAY_COLOR:4:7:0][TILE:133]
[ENVIRONMENT:SEDIMENTARY:CLUSTER:100]
[MELTING_POINT:13600]
[BOILING_POINT:15000]
[IS_STONE]
[SOLID_DENSITY:3100]

That's from 34.10 (okay plus Phoebus' Tileset but that's it).  No code about Bauxite being an ore of Aluminum.  No method of extracting it out of there.  No electrodes will attach to it and create pure aluminum.  It's not going to be created in a magma forge, the absolute PINNACLE of Dwarven technology.

[NW_Kohaku]

Regardless, I honestly think the geology system is fine the way it is. Getting too realistic to the point it's needlessly convoluted and dampering isn't fun. In DF,pretty much all the minerals can be found in equal distributions globally as long it's in the correct kind of layer. And I'm cool with that. Rule of fun.

How is "aluminum and platinum is not available" a concept that is "needlessly convoluted"?  It's just not going to exist, the same way advanced carbon-fiber materials are not going to exist. 

[Mrhappyface]

Then remove it yourself, if you think it detracts so much from the experience. I personally like both of them.

[Niyazov]

Just to elaborate on what NW_Kohaku said, you don't see metals' geometric crystalline forms often because you don't see native metals often - most metals are rarely naturally present in a pure, uncombined form. You can easily see geometric zinc crystals by looking at a sheet of galvanized steel. Alloys and worked metals generally form polycrystals which can be though of as masses of much smaller crystals. Amorphous metal does exist but it is very rare; it's called "metallic glass" and does not appear to occur naturally at any meaningful scale.Completely amorphous, non-crystalline materials include glass but also stuff like gels.

Not all gems are crystals. Gemstone is a term of art and is pretty much unrelated to physical properties. Amber is a gem but it is an amorphous solid, not a crystal.

[Arkenstone]

WE'RE ASKING TOADY TO REMOVE A FEATURE FROM DWARF FORTRESS.

Yes.  That is exactly what I'm doing.

Regardless, I honestly think the geology system is fine the way it is. Getting too realistic to the point it's needlessly convoluted and dampering isn't fun. In DF,pretty much all the minerals can be found in equal distributions globally as long it's in the correct kind of layer. And I'm cool with that. Rule of fun.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken fixing that unrealistic distribution of minerals is already on the dev list.

Then remove it yourself, if you think it detracts so much from the experience. I personally like both of them.

I already do so in my games, but I personally think that the "official version" of DF should be more realistic as well.  So I started this thread to bring the subject to the attention of those who could do something about it (eg, Toady & Threetoe), and after half a dozen pages I certain I've done that.


So then, perhaps we can discuss a few alternative ways Aluminum/Platinum could be handled?

Native Aluminum has a strong argument for being removed entirely.  It has only been found at a few mud volcanoes in tiny flakes which according to this one source might actually be remnants of aluminum foil wrappings for explosives.  I believe that the only way native aluminum could stay in the game is as a stone with material value of 2.

Platina, (native platinum) on the other hand, is more tricky.  I'm thinking that to work with the new "4 bars/ore" thing, native platina will have to be smelted into platina bars before alloying.


Also, I did some googling and discovered a few interesting things.  While the history of platinum seems to start in the mid-1700's, platina was used in small amounts by not only Central American cultures but the Ancient Egyptians as well.

Finally, after thinking about it a while I'm willing to accept that if dwarves could identify the metal, they might produce a demand for it that would push its price up significantly.  It still wouldn't change the fact that platina's unmalleable and unrefinable, though.



PS:
To all those who call upon "Rule of Cool", let me throw that one right back at you:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

How could a true Dwarf value anything more than GOLD?!?

[GreatWyrmGold]

About crystals: Not only is it a derail, it's a derail that I'm increasingly discovering I know little about what I'm talking about. I suspect that there's something that I'm not sure what it's called that would be what I was trying to talk about, but I'm giving up on figuring it out.

To those who argue that it shouldn't be removed, because realism isn't worth enough: The same could be said of the dwarven perpetual motion machine, or the current systems of cave-ins and aquifers. Do you want those to never be fixed? After all, removal of aluminum (and probably native aluminum), and the replacement of platinum with platina, would be much easier than fixing those bugs/incomplete features.

[King Mir]

It seems to me based on what was said earlier in the thread that native platinum should not be smelt-able into bars, but should be alloy-able from ore into something like electrum.

[UHaulDwarf]

PS:
To all those who call upon "Rule of Cool", let me throw that one right back at you:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

How could a true Dwarf value anything more than GOLD?!?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You have struck Adamantine! Praise the miners!

[Arkenstone]

PS:
To all those who call upon "Rule of Cool", let me throw that one right back at you:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

How could a true Dwarf value anything more than GOLD?!?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You have struck Adamantine! Praise the miners!

I know.  But since that applies to "it's cool to have a really rare metal more valuable than gold" as well, it just shows how both arguments are invalid.

[Mrhappyface]

You don't want adamantine in the game?

[Ubiq]

Question for the people who complain about the existence of Platinum and Aluminum in the game:

If the two metals had exactly the same properties, but were called, let's say, Mithril and Amazonium instead of Platinum and Aluminum. What then?

[NW_Kohaku]

Question for the people who complain about the existence of Platinum and Aluminum in the game:

If the two metals had exactly the same properties, but were called, let's say, Mithril and Amazonium instead of Platinum and Aluminum. What then?

Adamantine IS mithril. 

However, if you were talking about a wholly different randomly-named metal in a fantasy game, then what I'd want is some sort of actual use for the metal.  I'd probably argue pretty heavily about the game balance of the stuff, as well.

Platinum and aluminum aren't really anything but more high-value trash, anyway.  I don't even notice them when they're gone, and when they do show up, I get angry that one of my "deep metals" was nothing more than worthless platinum.

[Mrhappyface]

Question for the people who complain about the existence of Platinum and Aluminum in the game:

If the two metals had exactly the same properties, but were called, let's say, Mithril and Amazonium instead of Platinum and Aluminum. What then?

Adamantine IS mithril. 

However, if you were talking about a wholly different randomly-named metal in a fantasy game, then what I'd want is some sort of actual use for the metal.  I'd probably argue pretty heavily about the game balance of the stuff, as well.

Platinum and aluminum aren't really anything but more high-value trash, anyway.  I don't even notice them when they're gone, and when they do show up, I get angry that one of my "deep metals" was nothing more than worthless platinum.

The only worth digging for in the deeps is flux, magma, and candy. Maybe gems. All the metals down there are trading trash.