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[GreatWyrmGold]

Geothermal smelting has only been implemented a few years ago, and only in Iceland.

I understand it might not be realistic, but it's just...cool. I suppose that's something like why I want to keep platinum.

[UHaulDwarf]

An alternative solution would be to treat platinum and aluminum as gems instead of metal.

[sockless]

I think it's give native platinum silver value and get rid of "platinum-platinum" because it's beyond dwarven reach.

We can reach hell, balance the entire planet on a piece of soap, make walls out of a pebble, make giant screwpumps, and strangle elephants to death with our pinkie, but we cant get platinum? What.

Of course.  Dwarves have neither advanced chemicals nor electricity, after all.

Again, advanced chemistry and electricity, ancient technology.

Batteries assumed to be used for electroplating were found among artifacts from ancient egypt, knocking both of those two things out right away. (Ancient Egypt, insofar as I recall, fell at some point before 1450).

While access to either thing was hardly something the layman had, like it is today, most technologies are, at least in principle, a lot older than we give them credit for.

Here's a short list of things that are hilariously old:

- Gunpowder: 9th century china
- Steam engine: 1st century greece
- Electricity: The basic idea that electricity was a "thing" was put forth around 2750 BCE, and animals who generated their own electric fields were used in pre-medicine.

There's no reason that a sufficiently ingenious race like the dwarves shouldn't be able to build guns, locomotives or power plants, or even HUGE, MECHANICAL SPIDERS! AHAHAHAHAHA!

Well, ok, maybe not the spiders.

The batteries for electroplating was only a theory, and a wrong one. Aelophiles don't count as steam engines, since the energy wasn't harnessed. And electricity was realised as a thing, but that's all, they were using electric eels as a form of primitive electrotherapy, for treating headaches of all things (probably made them worse). The reason that we didn't have locomotives until recently is because there was a lack of good steel available and a lack of machines with the precision to make them.

The reason we don't have gunpowder is because Toady has said specifically that he doesn't want it.

[Neonivek]

An alternative solution would be to treat platinum and aluminum as gems instead of metal.

Well remember that the Dwarves are a race that live entirely underground at phenominal depths who have built their entire way of living on crafts and mining, they also can craft things beyond that of mortals. It isn't difficult to imagine that the Dwarves could be a bit anarchistic in their approach to metalurgy.

As well as we discovered many times before we have uses of metals before their discovery date. I believe that there are even a few Titanium objects created before its official discovery... but my research isn't up to date.

Though I have no problem with the removal of Aluminum or possibly its inclusion only in very specific circumstances (hey magical words are magic...)

[UHaulDwarf]

An alternative solution would be to treat platinum and aluminum as gems instead of metal.

Well remember that the Dwarves are a race that live entirely underground at phenominal depths who have built their entire way of living on crafts and mining, they also can craft things beyond that of mortals. It isn't difficult to imagine that the Dwarves could be a bit anarchistic in their approach to metalurgy.

As well as we discovered many times before we have uses of metals before their discovery date. I believe that there are even a few Titanium objects created before its official discovery... but my research isn't up to date.

Though I have no problem with the removal of Aluminum or possibly its inclusion only in very specific circumstances (hey magical words are magic...)

I don't know much about metallurgy(or anything really), but the idea of super rarer metals that can not be made into a useable form yet still is shiny makes me think of gems.
For example, while digging through bauxite ''gems'' of aluminum; Apparently platinum ''too brittle to work with'', yet I see no reason that it can't be cut and used like a gem.

[GreatWyrmGold]

An alternative solution would be to treat platinum and aluminum as gems instead of metal.

Well remember that the Dwarves are a race that live entirely underground at phenominal depths who have built their entire way of living on crafts and mining, they also can craft things beyond that of mortals. It isn't difficult to imagine that the Dwarves could be a bit anarchistic in their approach to metalurgy.

I believe you mean "anachronistic." Anarchistic would mean something like "in a way that defies laws."
Although that might describe dwarven metalurgy, too, come to think of it.

As well as we discovered many times before we have uses of metals before their discovery date. I believe that there are even a few Titanium objects created before its official discovery... but my research isn't up to date.

Though I have no problem with the removal of Aluminum or possibly its inclusion only in very specific circumstances (hey magical words are magic...)

Hm. I can definitely see some moody furnace operator going and smelting some native platinum or something, leaving the platinum bar to be treated as a mere curiosity until some other moody smith comes along and turns it into an artifact...

As to the idea of metal == gem: Metals and ores are opaque.

[Williham]

I think it's give native platinum silver value and get rid of "platinum-platinum" because it's beyond dwarven reach.

We can reach hell, balance the entire planet on a piece of soap, make walls out of a pebble, make giant screwpumps, and strangle elephants to death with our pinkie, but we cant get platinum? What.

Of course.  Dwarves have neither advanced chemicals nor electricity, after all.

Again, advanced chemistry and electricity, ancient technology.

Batteries assumed to be used for electroplating were found among artifacts from ancient egypt, knocking both of those two things out right away. (Ancient Egypt, insofar as I recall, fell at some point before 1450).

While access to either thing was hardly something the layman had, like it is today, most technologies are, at least in principle, a lot older than we give them credit for.

Here's a short list of things that are hilariously old:

- Gunpowder: 9th century china
- Steam engine: 1st century greece
- Electricity: The basic idea that electricity was a "thing" was put forth around 2750 BCE, and animals who generated their own electric fields were used in pre-medicine.

There's no reason that a sufficiently ingenious race like the dwarves shouldn't be able to build guns, locomotives or power plants, or even HUGE, MECHANICAL SPIDERS! AHAHAHAHAHA!

Well, ok, maybe not the spiders.

The batteries for electroplating was only a theory, and a wrong one. Aelophiles don't count as steam engines, since the energy wasn't harnessed. And electricity was realised as a thing, but that's all, they were using electric eels as a form of primitive electrotherapy, for treating headaches of all things (probably made them worse). The reason that we didn't have locomotives until recently is because there was a lack of good steel available and a lack of machines with the precision to make them.

The reason we don't have gunpowder is because Toady has said specifically that he doesn't want it.

I'm going to have to respond to this:

I'll give you the batteries.

But saying that the Aeolipile doesn't count as a steam engine doesn't make sense: The energy was harnessed, it just didn't do a whole lot of *useful* work.

And as for locomotives: Dwarves *have* good steel, and they clearly have precision metalworking tools!

And different cultures under different conditions will get different results from interacting with discoveries of natural forces, such as electricity.

An ancient egyptian might think: Ooh, electric eel! I wonder if it'll cure my headache?

A dwarf might think: Ouch! That hurt… Hmmm. I wonder if I can make a stronger version of that and toss gobbos at it? *Urist McFisherman has entered a fey mood!*

Dwarves clearly have an advanced understanding of mechanics, transfer of power, etc. Adding to that the understanding that steam can do work as well as water (which the Aeolipile demonstrates) would certainly have interesting results.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The Aeolipile was around thousands of years before "real" steam engines were extant. You know why? No one looked at that steamy toy and thought about how to improve it into some sort of engine, or maybe they didn't need anything like that. They probably could have made steamboats, but no one wanted to, and scaling up the aeolipile to steamboat-sized proportions likely would have caused some problems.

My point is, just because someone has the ability to do something, doesn't mean they will. Just like the hypothetical "caveman knowing enough to build a nuclear weapon" thing I mentioned. Cavemen had all the tools they needed to come up with an atomic theory of matter, invent calculus, create tools that would let them make more complex tools that would let them make more complex tools ad infinitum, etc. But, for a variety of reasons, they didn't. Just because a modern-day person heading back to ancient Greece could have helped them turn the aeropile into a steamship engine doesn't mean they could have figured that out on their own--they had work to do, and only so much time to tinker with so many things.

In short, ancients possessing something similar to a modern technology does not mean dwarves should automatically have access to that kind of technology, especially if the ancients never harnessed the technology for anything.

[Arkenstone]

As to the idea of metal == gem: Metals and ores are opaque.

As is jade, opal, pyrite, jet, onyx, turquoise...


But back on topic, this thread has degenerated into a "coolness" vs. realism debate.  I put the word 'coolness' in quotes because for many (including me) realism is cool.

Really I can't imagine that anyone hasn't yet been convinced that the technology to purify native platinum is beyond the reach of 15th century man, that time period being the official cutoff for DF tech.  The only argument I've seen left for keeping platinum besides "Rule of Cool" is that it might not be beyond the reach of 15th century dwarf.

Let me tell you know that I know of only two ways to purify platinum that might feasibly be within reach.  One involves electrolysis, and an amount of electricity which would take untold thousands of copies of the so-called "Baghdad Battery" to produce.  The other involves dissolving small amounts of native platinum at a time in acid and using chemical reactions to remove the impurities, and as such amounts to alchemy.  Which fits DF perfectly fine, but still doesn't change the fact that native platinum can't be smelted normally.

As for anyone who says "It's cool to have a really rare metal that's more valuable than gold", just mod in orichalcum or mithril or whatever fictional material you wish.  But even if it's silvery and occurs in small clusters and is heavier than gold you should call it 'truesilver' or something, because it still isn't really platinum. 

[Mrhappyface]

Again, geothermic metalworking.

[NW_Kohaku]

Again, geothermic metalworking.

The point of what he's saying is that heat isn't the issue, it takes some form of chemistry.  Merely heating the metal up isn't going to do it. 

[Mrhappyface]

No, I mean geothermic smelting irl has only been implemented a few years ago. But dwarves can do it in a medieval setting. So suspend your technological disbelief. I like platinum the way it is.

[Arkenstone]

As I said, it is literally impossible to refine platinum in a 'regular' smelter, even if it was hot enough to liquify it.  You need chemicals or electrolysis.

EDIT:
That is to say if refining platinum was moved from the smelter to the alchemist's workshop then at least it'd be physically possible, if a bit of a stretch of the tech level.

EDIT2:
Also, I didn't know that geothermic smelting was even possible before this thread, so I just accepted it as possible in the DF world.  I doubt irl geothermic smelting has much in common with DF's magma furnaces anyways.

[Niyazov]

An alternative solution would be to treat platinum and aluminum as gems instead of metal.

Well remember that the Dwarves are a race that live entirely underground at phenominal depths who have built their entire way of living on crafts and mining, they also can craft things beyond that of mortals. It isn't difficult to imagine that the Dwarves could be a bit anarchistic in their approach to metalurgy.

I believe you mean "anachronistic." Anarchistic would mean something like "in a way that defies laws."
Although that might describe dwarven metalurgy, too, come to think of it.

As well as we discovered many times before we have uses of metals before their discovery date. I believe that there are even a few Titanium objects created before its official discovery... but my research isn't up to date.

Though I have no problem with the removal of Aluminum or possibly its inclusion only in very specific circumstances (hey magical words are magic...)

Hm. I can definitely see some moody furnace operator going and smelting some native platinum or something, leaving the platinum bar to be treated as a mere curiosity until some other moody smith comes along and turns it into an artifact...

As to the idea of metal == gem: Metals and ores are opaque.

Half the gems in the game are opaque in real life (turquoise, bloodstone, etc.) Plus any stone in the game, including clay, can be cut into a cabochon gem. Some metal ores are used like this in real life, like hematite and cassiterite.

Incidentally, "native metals" are different than other ores since they are the unadulterated elemental metal (i.e. gold nuggets). There is even some text in the raws about working copper nuggets as a future ability.

As I said, it is literally impossible to refine platinum in a 'regular' smelter, even if it was hot enough to liquify it.  You need chemicals or electrolysis.

EDIT:
That is to say if refining platinum was moved from the smelter to the alchemist's workshop then at least it'd be physically possible, if a bit of a stretch of the tech level.

Platinum only occurs in-game as native platinum; its only inclusions would be small amounts of other platinum-group metals that are not represented in game at all. The processes you are describing are for separating gold from platinum, which is not an issue as the game stands right now.

[NW_Kohaku]

No, I mean geothermic smelting irl has only been implemented a few years ago. But dwarves can do it in a medieval setting. So suspend your technological disbelief. I like platinum the way it is.

However, that again just brings up the issue of "if we suspend our disbelief for this, why don't we suspend our disbelief for any other random thing?" 

The reason we have an arbitrary technological cutoff date is not to make everything hyper-real, it's to make the game feel like it's a medieval fantasy world. 

If we have railroads and steam engines and electrolysis and flintlocks and giant steam-powered mechanical spiders, it makes the whole game more steampunk than high fantasy. 

Dwarves digging deep into the earth and forging their weapons in the fires of "The Blood of Armok" feels fantasy.  Steam engines don't.

I'll be willing to buy making a rare metal through alchemy, especially if it's extremely complex or takes multiple rare items to do, so as to make it a really rare and valuable metal, and magma-forging is fine as it is (although I still want deadly gasses), but saying "we have magma-forging, so we should have access to modern technology" doesn't really cut it.