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Author Topic: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum  (Read 27746 times)

NW_Kohaku

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2012, 07:58:57 am »

The first uses of money basically involved tying the value of silver to the value of wheat (As in, the temples that were the center of commerce said 1 silver bar = 60 rations of food, and enforced that), and basically the silver bars never left the temple vaults for thousands of years because it was traded mostly in the form of the numbers written on the ledgers of accountants, rather than actually being traded around. 
My history professor says your wrong.  According to his class, an early Temple or Palace economy had no concept of currency whatsoever: they were pure communists, with everything going into and out of a common pot.  The closest thing they had to currency was an ancient form of ration stamps.  Later when empires rose they would find precious metals were convenient for paying officials, as being always in demand they could be traded for what was actually desired.  Coinage came about as a means of storing metals in units of guaranteed weight and purity, and eventually trickled down into the middle classes during the Central-High Middle Ages.  But even then, the concept of 'money' as we know it, a numerical measure of wealth, was still alien to them.

Yeah...  I had to write an essay on this stuff last week.

Oooh, history lesson-off.

The earliest cultures were communist, yes, but I'm talking about the introduction of metal-backed money.  By definition, that means that they were at the point they were using metal-backed money.  By definition, that means before then, they weren't using metal-backed money. 

Besides, you, yourself, just talked about how they were trading around ration stamps, which is exactly the money I was talking about. 

The price of silver was tied to the price of grain to give silver a value - this was enforced by temples being willing to exchange the grain they were donated for silver if someone brought silver in.  (The value of money being what it can be exchanged for, and the faith that it will be taken as legal tender.)  The temples didn't actually circulate silver coins, however, they simply measured wealth on clay tablet ledgers.  A farmer who got their tools worked on by a blacksmith would have to agree to pay that blacksmith back a given amount of grain when his harvest came in, and that debt would be recorded on a tablet, or the exchange would take place using their stamp-coinage. 

You're wrong about the Middle Ages, however. 

The "Pound Sterling", for example, was never minted for centuries after it came into use, and many medieval cultures continued to use the Roman Denarii as their measure of worth long after the Denarii had stopped being minted and stopped being in general circulation. 

Only small change used by merchants would be handled in coins - most large amounts of wealth were still handled as ledgers in accounting books.  Most nobles themselves were in debt, and the large currency exchanges were often just giant IOUs from some noble that was passed around the whole society.



Back to the actual topic at hand, however...

Platinum and Aluminum are overvalued and overly common as metals in-game.

Platinum only has value now because it's extremely rare and actually used for things. 

Before, when it couldn't be seen as distinct from silver or tin, except that it was lower-quality, and where it was so rare as to make collecting it pointless, there would be no place you could have a guaranteed exchange of that metal for any given price, because nobody else would have heard of the metal.

As such, it is useless as money.

Without any of the later, more modern uses, there would be no demand for it, either.  As such, it would be useless as a trade good.

Without people recognizing it, it would be useless even as a rare thing for nobles to want just to show off how they can get something rare. 

Platinum would therefore have no value. 
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Chagen46

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2012, 02:02:09 pm »

Yes, but Dwarves are supposed to be freakishly good at mining and identifying metals/ores. Maybe they are aware of its wealth.

I think one solution could be making Platinum worth a lot when traded with dwarves, but worthless when traded to other civs (like humans).
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Jake

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2012, 02:24:09 pm »

I think we should hold off on discussing the value of different metals for the time being, as its likely to become procedurally determined at some point in the near future. Besides, once the magic and alchemy systems get fleshed out a bit it may just acquire some practical value.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2012, 02:25:43 pm »

Yes, but Dwarves are supposed to be freakishly good at mining and identifying metals/ores. Maybe they are aware of its wealth.

I think one solution could be making Platinum worth a lot when traded with dwarves, but worthless when traded to other civs (like humans).

That's kind of pointlessly complex, and ignores the fact that rarity alone is no reason for value. 

Money is exactly as valuable as what someone is willing to give you to have more of it.  That is the only thing that gives money it's value - the faith that it can be exchanged for something of value.

Gold and silver were initially propped up by being exchangable for food or other needed goods by governments (fiat currency).  They were preferred units of exchange for merchants, and far more easily stored or spent by nobles than a bale of grain or a chicken. 

Gold and silver continued having value past that point simply because so many people had faith in gold and silver for so long that it just became a globally accepted fiat currency that nobody even recognized was fiat currency anymore.

If you can't trade it with anyone because nobody's heard of it, and you don't have enough of it to be worth hoarding, then it's too rare to be used as a rare metal. 
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Arkenstone

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2012, 03:34:37 pm »

Since Native Platinum is usually alloyed with other metals, it could be made as a native alloy in the raws.  As in when you smelt the Ore instead of Platinum you get a less useful alloy, which you smelt again to seperate the metals...
It is simply not possible to separate these metals using 15th century technology.

I think we should hold off on discussing the value of different metals for the time being, as its likely to become procedurally determined at some point in the near future. Besides, once the magic and alchemy systems get fleshed out a bit it may just acquire some practical value.
I doubt that the game will ever be able to procedurally determine anything's worth without at least a rough price guide, as it has no way of judging qualitative values.  And as for alchemy, I really don't think that it'll work out in the way you're thinking of in vanilla.


@KW: I am going to refrain from arguing history here for the sake of the thread.
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irmo

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2012, 03:36:13 pm »

There was some discussion on another thread about these two metals which reminded me of them, and how they aren't very faithfully represented in DF.

And this affects gameplay how, exactly?
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Arkenstone

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2012, 06:17:40 pm »

There was some discussion on another thread about these two metals which reminded me of them, and how they aren't very faithfully represented in DF.
And this affects gameplay how, exactly?
Not everything needs to be about gameplay.  Realism can be a valid goal in its own right.
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Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2012, 06:36:51 pm »

Hm...

Well, if platinum is impossible to extract with DF's supposed level of skill, then I guess that it would, at best, be a secret. However, if it is possible to extract platinum from ore, even (and especially) if it's difficult, it should retain its value for at least some nobles. I'm thinking here of every culture that built massive monuments that strained their construction capabilities to impress their rivals. Did the moai of Easter Island have any practical purpose? Probably not, and almost certainly not for the pukao many later moai had upon their heads. That's just the example that springs to mind immediately; there are probably examples from every time and culture ranging from the realization that combat wasn't the only way to impress others up to the present day. And, again, it makes sense to us, even if the facts don't really support it.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2012, 07:48:24 pm »

Did the moai of Easter Island have any practical purpose? Probably not, and almost certainly not for the pukao many later moai had upon their heads.

I would also point out that there was a chapter in Collapse by Jared Diamond specifically on how the natives of Easter Island killed themselves trying to build those Moai, as well. 
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Arkenstone

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2012, 08:54:16 pm »

Hm...

Well, if platinum is impossible to extract with DF's supposed level of skill, then I guess that it would, at best, be a secret. However, if it is possible to extract platinum from ore, even (and especially) if it's difficult, it should retain its value for at least some nobles. I'm thinking here of every culture that built massive monuments that strained their construction capabilities to impress their rivals. Did the moai of Easter Island have any practical purpose? Probably not, and almost certainly not for the pukao many later moai had upon their heads. That's just the example that springs to mind immediately; there are probably examples from every time and culture ranging from the realization that combat wasn't the only way to impress others up to the present day. And, again, it makes sense to us, even if the facts don't really support it.
[sarcasm]Yes, a secret.  Is that why nobles will pay so much to show it off?[/sarcasm]

On a more serious note, you have only put evidence up for the possibility that platinum should be valuable; there still remains substantial reason why it shouldn't be so.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 08:57:01 pm by Arkenstone »
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Quote from: Retro
Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.

therahedwig

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2012, 12:19:03 pm »

On one hand I agree with 'dwarves should be able to recognise metals other species can't because they're dwarves'. On the other I completely agree that there might not be much interest in platinum if has so little use.

I mean, I think dwarves would recognise platinum, and may even be able to melt it down, for the sheer sake of them being dwarves. Humans for example wouldn't be able to do this.
On the other hand dwarves probably won't think much of platinum besides 'not silver' 'heavy'. Maybe if platinum gets interesting qualities like silver has it's value may be warranted, but right now it's decorative at best.

Could be culture bound too. Maybe wearing a platinum bracelet for good luck? Would up the demand quite a bit. Though it'll be a while till these delicate concepts make their way into df. After all, we shouldn't forget that aluminium itself was more valuable than gold once upon a time.(Napoleon's cutlery?)
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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2012, 03:26:41 pm »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platinum

Platinum can be found natively. It is difficult to find in significant qualities. It is only about 100 years late for the 1400's era. 1557 was the first written reference to platinum, "which no fire nor any Spanish artifice has yet been able to liquefy"

OP, you don't exactly know the history of this stone very well.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2012, 03:36:38 pm »


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platinum

Platinum can be found natively. It is difficult to find in significant qualities. It is only about 100 years late for the 1400's era. 1557 was the first written reference to platinum, "which no fire nor any Spanish artifice has yet been able to liquefy"

OP, you don't exactly know the history of this stone very well.
Okay...150 years or so after the cut-off date for DF-level technology, and even then they couldn't smelt it? Native platinum might have an argument for existance, but if Wikipedia is right, platinum itself doesn't.
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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2012, 07:03:07 pm »


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platinum

Platinum can be found natively. It is difficult to find in significant qualities. It is only about 100 years late for the 1400's era. 1557 was the first written reference to platinum, "which no fire nor any Spanish artifice has yet been able to liquefy"

OP, you don't exactly know the history of this stone very well.
Okay...150 years or so after the cut-off date for DF-level technology, and even then they couldn't smelt it? Native platinum might have an argument for existance, but if Wikipedia is right, platinum itself doesn't.

Yeah, and neither do alloys of platinum.
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Arkenstone

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2012, 09:03:36 pm »

On a more serious note, you have only put evidence up for the possibility that platinum should be valuable; there still remains substantial reason why it shouldn't be so.
The lack of malleability? Increases the effort put into it, and therefore the value some people would see in it. The lack of luster? ...Well, okay, less asthetic from many points of view, but not neccisarily all. And, once again, sometimes people spend money on silly, expensive things because of the expense in obtaining and/or maintaining them. For some modern examples, how about mansions (how much space can one person need?), or private jets (unless you're flying a couple dozen people with you)? Those are just the ones that come to mind immediately.

In that case, might I be able to interest you in a small sample of Pm-147?  Going cheap, just $2000 an ounce.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platinum

Platinum can be found natively. It is difficult to find in significant qualities. It is only about 100 years late for the 1400's era. 1557 was the first written reference to platinum, "which no fire nor any Spanish artifice has yet been able to liquefy"

OP, you don't exactly know the history of this stone very well.
Okay...150 years or so after the cut-off date for DF-level technology, and even then they couldn't smelt it? Native platinum might have an argument for existance, but if Wikipedia is right, platinum itself doesn't.

Yeah, and neither do alloys of platinum.

Actually, I based my argument off of that very excerpt...

Additionally, evidence is incomplete.  The very same page on wikipedia also said that they were able to alloy it with gold.  How they might have done so without melting it remains unanswered.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 09:06:53 pm by Arkenstone »
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Quote from: Retro
Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.
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