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[ChairmanPoo]

Risk compensation is a real phenomenom in epidemiology. I don't think it'd a reason to forbid use of the machine per se, but it would encourage favoring education alongside it's use.

[DarkWolfXV]

Your point seems to be that life should not be easy past a certain point. Why is this so? We have worked for hundreds of thousands of years to make life easy, why should we stop now?

Hmm, that is quite good question, but maybe because i deal with retards, idiots, and lowlifes everyday who are spoiled by their families, that are not even thankful to their parents. Its because when life gets easier, people get spoiled, become arrogant and *insert lots of bad stuff here*.
I deal with people which piss me off on daily basis. Also when things are easier, for example, now the thing that pisses me off that you dont need to play instrument to make songs, or even have any musical knowledge, just steal someones drum beats and rap over them, and bam, you get millions of dollars for piece of shit. Not always, but this happens, and the most pathetic thing is that a lot of artists play live using playback, not even trying to sing/rap/whatever.

[Bauglir]

I'm really not sure what the problem is if they're still producing something useful. Getting used to things being easy only becomes a problem when you can't deal when they're not.

[DarkWolfXV]

Getting used to things being easy only becomes a problem when you can't deal when they're not.

But too many people cant deal with things when they are not easy.

[Pnx]

I'm reminded of that bit of science fiction Isaac Asimov did where all the pocket calculators on the ship break, and they need to calculate a course for the ship to take but none of them know how. Then someone pulls out a slide rule and all is saved.

[Eagleon]

DarkWolf: There's a reason the term 'morbidly obese' exists - past a certain point it becomes progressively more painful to exercise. Not the good pain you get from regular exercise, the crippling body-ache you get from a minimum wage job coupled with the same sort of hopelessness. Yes, they were stupid in some cases for getting to that point, and most of them acknowledge that. But would you call someone recovering from a spinal injury lazy for breaking down at some point during physical therapy?

Most people are about as lazy as most other people, by definition. I'd argue that treating them as any lazier because they don't want to exercise is about as futile and destructive as telling an alcoholic that they're worthless.

[Araph]

DarkWolf: There's a reason the term 'morbidly obese' exists - past a certain point it becomes progressively more painful to exercise. Not the good pain you get from regular exercise, the crippling body-ache you get from a minimum wage job coupled with the same sort of hopelessness.

That's why I prefaced my first post by saying that the hypothetical machine is fine as long as it's operated by doctors; there are people who would genuinely benefit from the procedure, but it has risks if anybody can buy the machine and use it.

Your point seems to be that life should not be easy past a certain point. Why is this so? We have worked for hundreds of thousands of years to make life easy, why should we stop now?

This is an interesting question. I don't know the answer to it, but it's making me think.

Hmm, that is quite good question, but maybe because i deal with retards, idiots, and lowlifes everyday who are spoiled by their families, that are not even thankful to their parents. Its because when life gets easier, people get spoiled, become arrogant and *insert lots of bad stuff here*.
I deal with people which piss me off on daily basis. Also when things are easier, for example, now the thing that pisses me off that you dont need to play instrument to make songs, or even have any musical knowledge, just steal someones drum beats and rap over them, and bam, you get millions of dollars for piece of shit. Not always, but this happens, and the most pathetic thing is that a lot of artists play live using playback, not even trying to sing/rap/whatever.

While I dislike the spoiled, unappreciative bastards you are referring to, I'm not quite sure that the segue into music is entirely relevant to the topic.

[kaijyuu]

Getting used to things being easy only becomes a problem when you can't deal when they're not.

But too many people cant deal with things when they are not easy.

Go try to live in the wilderness for a month, without supplies, cut off from all human contact.

Can't survive? Lazy.

Getting used to things being easy only becomes a problem when you can't deal when they're not.

Which is best dealt with by making sure they don't become hard again.





I'm reminded of the "true programmer" debate, concerning high level languages. Some people out there legitimately believe programmers who only know higher level languages aren't actually programmers, but are essentially script kiddies because they don't know the "real" way computers work. As an assembly programmer, I can tell you such people are full of shit.

Some relevant xkcds:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ultimately, while you do need to create the universe before you can make an apple pie from scratch, no one actually cares if you make it from scratch or not just so long as it tastes good. You don't need knowledge or experience in the boring parts of life if they're skippable.

[Araph]

Getting used to things being easy only becomes a problem when you can't deal when they're not.

But too many people cant deal with things when they are not easy.

Go try to live in the wilderness for a month, without supplies, cut off from all human contact.

Can't survive? Lazy.

You do realize that you're carrying this to an absurd extreme, whereas the previous statement -- that some people can't deal with things when they're harder than normal -- is actually a valid complaint? The difference between the two statements is like comparing getting used to swimming in a cold pool to adjusting to swimming in a freezing ocean.

Getting used to things being easy only becomes a problem when you can't deal when they're not.

Which is best dealt with by making sure they don't become hard again.

Yes, that's the best way to deal with that, but if that's been your modus operandi for dealing with troubles, welcome to reality! Here you, quite frankly, have next to no say in the events going on around you. You quite often can't avoid things becoming hard again, whether it's a mild case or extreme case.

In short, you're using blanket statements and exaggerations to support your point, which, I might add, has deviated quite a lot from the original argument of whether or not using a machine to remove fat is a supportable project. The programming analogy fails to really counter DarkWolf's complaint, somewhat general and a tad off-topic as it may have been.


And then a bonus chunk of text, as I am fairly certain you'll disagree about the applicability of your analogy:

Ultimately, while you do need to create the universe before you can make an apple pie from scratch, no one actually cares if you make it from scratch or not just so long as it tastes good. You don't need knowledge or experience in the boring parts of life if they're skippable.

That doesn't consider the times when the universe goes 'oh, hey, you were planning on <insert action here>? NOPE.' and forces you to act outside of your zone of convenience. A large chunk of the statement that 'some people have trouble coping with difficulties' applies to circumstance that are not self-imposed.

[kaijyuu]

You do realize that you're carrying this to an absurd extreme, whereas the previous statement -- that some people can't deal with things when they're harder than normal -- is actually a valid complaint?

My argument there is calling people "lazy" for not knowing more than they need to is absurd. Not that people not being able to deal with unexpected scenarios isn't a problem.


Your argument is people need to be able to deal with problems. That's fine. However, having a proper fallback plan if things don't go like you expect does not always entail having more knowledge/experience than necessary to do the job normally. Example: Computer systems. Your average school teacher doesn't need to know how networking works. But they do need to be able get their stuff back to working order if the network fails... that's why they call in the networking guy. Actually teaching every teacher to know how to fix their own computers would take more time and money than having 1 expert on call.

We are not independent of society nor do we need to be. There are safety nets other than being able to fix problems yourself for the vast majority of potential "harder than normal" situations. Back to the magic fat burning machine, if one breaks down, then people aren't suddenly going to go obese with no recourse. There will be more machines, and there will be a repair guy to fix it the old one. There would be no good reason not to rely on them.

[Araph]

Wait, wasn't this whole argument over laziness, not ignorance? I may have misinterpreted DarkWolf's argument and your response as being different things when they actually were both about the same thing. From my point of view, it seems like the first complaint was about how people reacted to unexpected difficulties, not people not knowing things that were unnecessary.

Back to the magic fat burning machine, if one breaks down, then people aren't suddenly going to go obese with no recourse. There will be more machines, and there will be a repair guy to fix it the old one. There would be no good reason not to rely on them.

Actually, there is are good reasons. You'd have to be paying professionals to operate the machine, and that'd probably cost quite a bit. By 'quite a bit', I mean the maximum of what some people are willing to pay, which could be quite a bit more than what the majority of the population would need to pay. Also, there's the potential danger of the machine being misoperated or breaking down during the procedure, which could actually be really dangerous.

[kaijyuu]

Well when I first replied to this thread, I raised similar concerns about side effects. I believe the point of the hypothetical scenario though is whether it's "right" to let a machine do all the work for you though, so talking about side effects, misuse, etc is kinda off the rails. Besides, as we're talking about an imaginary magic machine, we don't know what a real one would actually have for side effects and potential for misuse.

[Mr. Palau]

Well when I first replied to this thread, I raised similar concerns about side effects. I believe the point of the hypothetical scenario though is whether it's "right" to let a machine do all the work for you though, so talking about side effects, misuse, etc is kinda off the rails. Besides, as we're talking about an imaginary magic machine, we don't know what a real one would actually have for side effects and potential for misuse.

He is right the question is if there was a magic machine that rid your body off all unwanted fat deposits then would it be a good machine?

This magic machine could be defined as the worst possible machine or the best possible machine, or anything in between.

[Jackrabbit]

Really, from a hypothetical viewpoint it's a fantastic idea and I'd certainly be in favor of it. From a realistic viewpoint I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole until after its twentieth iteration because holy crap the things that could go wrong. I understand that ethical concerns probably exist but I can't think of any reasonable ones, if this machine is in fact some kind of perfect fitness machine.

[kaijyuu]

Proceeding to remove fat...


...Oops. Missed the target, slightly. Did you need those organs?