Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[NCommander]

So I was recently been mulling over building a megaproject involving the circus and the clowns, and have recently taken to experimenting with the initial zerg rush in the advancement of science. What I've discovered is that the initial rush is somewhat different in DF2012 vs DF2010. In DF2010, breaching hell would always generate about 60-80 demons consistently. In DF2012, the number can be wildly variable. Specifically, the number of clowns generated seem to be based on either time or wealth of a fortress.

Using dfhack, and reveal demon on a completely new embark (done to locate the spire where the demon rush will occur), I found that right on embark, the circus will only spawn about 20-ish demons at most. A few regen worlds (included an advanced gen that bumped the number of demon types to 1000) always had the number of demons semi-constant at around 20.

Curious, I grabbed my last fort which I had annual saves for, and checked the rush behavior. In that world, just after embark in the initial save, I once again saw about 20 demons when hell became exposed. Curious if the HFS had broken in 2012, I ran TheAussieGuy's save of the Spire of Amarok, and breached the HFS on that map, and ended up with a whopping 140 demons, much more than any save I checked in DF2010.

Going back to my last fort, I revealed the demons each year I had played, and found the number of demons increased. After year two, I had roughly 35 demons. Year four was a much more healthy 80 demons.

I will continue working on experiments to understand the change in the clowns initial siege. If the clown numbers are based on time vs. wealth, it might be possible to rush for an adamantine spire, and beat the demons before then can number en-mass.

More science is required ...

[Aviator CJ]

Well researched. Posting to watch - looking foward to further discoveries.

[ThatAussieGuy]

This is quite fascinating.  Let us know what the highest number you can get is based on your fort's wealth.

[Trapezohedron]

So in short, fortress level scaling? Nice find. Here's hoping someone running a succession fort wouldn't breach hell until at least year 8 and fortress wealth at least 2mil.

[Morpha]

What about dwarf population? maybe get a few hundred migrants on the spire map and then see if it results in a large difference.

[ThatAussieGuy]

Also, I don't know who "TheAussieDwarf" is that seems to have created a Spire of his own, but I have some very strong words and pressure plate-rigged bridge I'd like to share with him...

[Khym Chanur]

Posting to watch.

[Courtesy Arloban]

I know players have colonized the circus, but has anyone ever set up a seperate set of tunnels from their fort to breach the circus with?  I mean letting them out to roam free on the surface (tearing apart invaders, merchants, and migrants) while a self-sufficent fort is locked down.

[i2amroy]

Nice find. I see that there are three main potential sources of demon influence here, each of which will probably need to be tested separately.
1)# of dwarves. Does a fort with more dwarves get more demons?
2)Generated wealth. More wealth = more demons?
3)Age. If a fort is older does that mean more demons spawn?

Of course more then one of these things could potentially affect the demons, or even all three of them, but for !!SCIENCE!! they will probably need to be tested separately.

[Loud Whispers]

Now what about the second wave? I've gotten a 300+ wave on a fort in the first year [Max demon type settings]. Also would there be any significant data to add a link between wealth and the amount of demons? Correlation does not always imply causation.

[Mudcrab]

I know players have colonized the circus, but has anyone ever set up a seperate set of tunnels from their fort to breach the circus with?  I mean letting them out to roam free on the surface (tearing apart invaders, merchants, and migrants) while a self-sufficent fort is locked down.

Yeah man I remember some DF tutorials on youtube for DF2010 where that was done.

They just slaughtered loads of elves!

[NCommander]

What about dwarf population? maybe get a few hundred migrants on the spire map and then see if it results in a large difference.

Population seems to be irrelevant. Breaching hell in the Spire map (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=109125.0 for those who haven't seen it). I only had the 7 reclaim dwarfs when I triggered the breach, and got whacked by the demons. This also suggests the clown rush is based on wealth, but several years had passed during the construction of that map, leaving it less than obvious on what causes the circus to grow.

In addition, I have been unable to determine if going through a fortress has any effects on the clown rush.

Also, I don't know who "TheAussieDwarf" is that seems to have created a Spire of his own, but I have some very strong words and pressure plate-rigged bridge I'd like to share with him...

*ahem* !!SCIENCE!! shouldn't be preformed when the overseer is very tired.

[NCommander]

So some initial testing information. Once I had the spire fully working with scrubbed raws, I appointed a bookkeeper and broker to determine the wealth of the fort. This is to get an average idea of what factors effect the clownrush

Inchanyon's wealth:
Created Wealth: 2982160 DB
 Weapons: 46800 DB
 Armor and Garb: 106971 DB
 Furniture: 619341 DB
 Architecture: 918128 DB
 Displayed: 257321 DB
 Held/Worn: None

Imported Wealth: 882560 DB
Exported Wealth: None

Population: 7

The year is 277, and worldgen appears to have ended at 250. As such, 27 years have passed since the end of worldgen. As a test, I ran a test embark in another part of the world, and did a reveal, and ended up with 20-ish demons, as expected.

Interesting, when running reveal, the DB went up a fair bit but that might be simply due to parts of the fortress being hidden on reclaim.

Once hell was exposed, 108 clowns were spawned (there were 152 creatures total, 44 which were wild/friend/undead total at the time of running).

We can draw some conclusions from this test. Exported wealth isn't factored into the clown car spawn size. The current population size is 7, however a few hundred dwarfs were claimed when Inchanyon was built/abandoned, so this remains partially inconclusive.

I also noticed a few interesting things with way the initial clown wave spawned. It seems that the spawn appears entirely on the 2x2 square below the spire. If seems if it can't immediately path up onto solider ground, the demons will fall back into hell if they're unable to fly. It might be able to abuse this into letting fewer demons get into your fortress. Once they fall back into hell, I surmise that they would require a staircase be built from the floor to allow them access to your base.

As another test, I did an embark on a fresh world with no items (so created wealth should be close to non-existent) and then exposed hell, and got 21 demons.

In short:

Known:
 - Exported Wealth is not factored in the clown rush (or if it is, its relatively insignificant).
 - Current fortress population doesn't appear to be a consideration on how many clowns are spawned. Total population over the life of the fort might still be considered. I consider this unlikely however

Likely:
 - Total population does not matter for the clown rush (relatively easy to confirm)
 - Time does not appear to be a factor for clown population. A few SPEED:0 tests should confirm this
 - At least 20 demons will always appear when hell is breached (need to try making a negative wealth fortress to confirm; raw modification required).

Theorized:
 - The rush likely uses the same mechanics as seiges to for generating numbers. If this is the case, then it might be able to increase the number of clowns by boosting wealth by insane amounts. The second question is then raised: is there a cap on the number of demons.

A few more tests should answer those questions, and then I can get to part two of understanding demon behavior.

[ThatAussieGuy]

What you're finding is a few things I sealed off when I was done with them in Inchcanyon.  Not so much The Doom Clock, but the initial fort used as I was building The Spire - workshops, beds, etc.  There was still a lot of furniture and things in there.  I sealed them up and flooded them quite thoroughly for fun, so they wouldn't have scattered on reclaim.

The thing about them spawning in the adamantine vein isn't new (otherwise you'd never get anything but flying clowns during the car rush), but the spawn size information is still interesting.

If it's any help, the fort population was about 220-ish at time of abandon.

edit:  Oh, and don't forgot to periodically reset that clock....

[NCommander]

What you're finding is a few things I sealed off when I was done with them in Inchcanyon.  Not so much The Doom Clock, but the initial fort used as I was building The Spire - workshops, beds, etc.  There was still a lot of furniture and things in there.  I sealed them up and flooded them quite thoroughly for fun, so they wouldn't have scattered on reclaim.

The thing about them spawning in the adamantine vein isn't new (otherwise you'd never get anything but flying clowns during the car rush), but the spawn size information is still interesting.

If it's any help, the fort population was about 220-ish at time of abandon.

edit:  Oh, and don't forgot to periodically reset that clock....

Indeed, but if one was to channel so that the breach was a straight shaft down with no floor to stand on within the vein, you could very easily half the demon force as the fliers would fly up the channel, and the others would fall down. Likely useful for those who want to breach hell, but limit the number of demons they want to fight (its also a very important data point for the megaproject I'll be building).

I also find it oddly fitting that I'm using a fort that requires regular dwarfian sacrifices to study the clowns. I just need to wait for Toady to implement dead dwarfs respawning as demons when you breach the circus and the circle will be complete :-).

EDIT: if you wanted to disable scatter on reclaim completely, if you mark the fort as a monsterlair with DFhack, it prevents it. It screws up A mode in some ways I believe though.