Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[bombzero]

Yeah.... who was it that thought capitalism was a great idea? anyone invented a time machine yet? anyone got a shotgun?

[SalmonGod]

Not sure what else you might expect when our economic system is essentially playing king of the hill. Only the hill is made of people.

This is the way I see it.  I actually have a really positive outlook on people.  I've met very few people in my life who I considered to have no redeeming qualities, or who I couldn't get along with under the right circumstances.  I think all people have their ugly sides, but that we have more positive natural tendencies than negative ones.  People are often confused when they first meet me, because they can't decide if I'm a hopelessly dreamy idealist or a crushingly negative cynic.  I'm really both at the same time.

Our social structures are just poisonous to our behavior.  They encourage all the wrong things.  All of them.  Very rarely is anything positive encouraged, or encouraged because it is a positive thing.  And I think it's only that way because of the initial constraints that civilization had to arise out of combined with a handful of socio-psychological quirks.

[mainiac]

Yeah.... who was it that thought capitalism was a great idea? anyone invented a time machine yet? anyone got a shotgun?

I think it's important to realize that capitalism is actually more egalitarian then the systems that preceded it in most places.

[bombzero]

well, such is true of many systems, i.e. communism, socialism and capitalism all sound great in their true idealistic format, unfortunately it seems none of them were designed with human nature in mind.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i object to the dogmatic assumption that human nature is that all encompassing. different "human natures" have been observed in different cultures, so i'd rather call it nurture than nature...
but then it wouldn't be that easy to use it in dismissive statements

i think it is important to define what is actually ideal. idealistically speaking, capitalism never sounded that great to me, neither does the concept of democracy, while in practice they do tend to work better with the mindset most of modern humans have. i don't think this mindset is genetic or irreversible. it sure is resilient, though.

edit:the thing about economic and political systems is that there is very little margin for trial and error. how do you tell to a starving enraged mob "well, that didn't go that well, let's try the same thing but this time we do this and that differently". democracy has always been present in all forms of government, the masses always had a great share of power, if not voting power, then revolting power, and the masses are very, and understandably, shortsighted.

[kaijyuu]

The ideal to be shot for is actually really, really simple:

Choice in lifestyle. Let us choose how we spend our time.



It's just that, while the goal is simple, the path to get there isn't. We're a long ways off from Star Trek's idyllic federation, where money doesn't exist and all jobs are all voluntary. Maybe in a few hundred years.

[Descan]

Or we could do it quicker by focusing on post-scarcity technologies and techniques*, and then** dismantling the scarcity-oriented societal infrastructure.

*One could argue that we are basically at this point and that any scarcity is artificial in nature. I'm inclined to believe this.

**Or we could do it during. Or now. I'm good and keen for now.

[bombzero]

Or we could do it quicker by focusing on post-scarcity technologies and techniques*, and then** dismantling the scarcity-oriented societal infrastructure.

*One could argue that we are basically at this point and that any scarcity is artificial in nature. I'm inclined to believe this.

**Or we could do it during. Or now. I'm good and keen for now.

that's A really good point, the only semi-legitimate scarcity in developed countries is food, and even then not that big of a concern.
"We have an oil shortage", America exports almost as much oil as it imports. derp.
"We are low on medical supplies for some diseases", FDA won't allow usage of risky treatments for terminal diseases. derp.
etc etc ad infinium but the basic principal is that 'shortages' and 'scarcities' are simply created by greed and lust for power.

[SalmonGod]

Food isn't even scarce.  Most of the food we produce is thrown away, and farmers are actually offered financial incentives to produce at less than full capacity.  We are more than capable of feeding the world's population.  The only reason we don't is because our societal mechanisms are all designed to discourage us from giving to those who don't offer anything directly in return.

[bombzero]

etc etc ad infinium but the basic principal is that 'shortages' and 'scarcities' are simply created by greed and lust for power.

[Leafsnail]

The US is a net exporter of petroleum products and natural gas, but it's a long way from being in the same position on crude oil.

[SalmonGod]

Yeah, I was just pointing out that not even food scarcity is semi-legitimate.

Post-scarcity is really something that needs to be taken more seriously.  There are many things that were once scarce but now are not, but still treated like they are.  The biggest problem is the vast majority of people aren't even familiar with the term post-scarcity, and their personal experiences of struggling to maintain access to basic resources informs them that these things must still be scarce.  Trying to explain to people that competition for resources is no longer necessary in most cases is like asking them to divide by zero.  Does not compute.  They won't even argue the point.  They'll pretend you said something else.

Our only real scarcity issue today is energy.  We have plenty, but it comes from limited sources that are subject to disgusting politics.  Once again, though... I blame corrupt motivations for misplacing our efforts and stifling progress in this area.

[bombzero]

ugh, fuck, politics. the true root of many problems.

[Leafsnail]

"The planet only has so many fossilized fish" isn't one of them, though .

[Lagslayer]

sad fact of the day: Most of the aid sent to third world countries gets gobbled up by the warlords.

So we have come full circle. How do we get leaders who don't become/are corrupt? How do we get enormous groups of different people to work together?