Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ed boy]

The bias in your post makes my blood boil because you don't seem to realize it's even there.

At any rate, until you provide some rationale or proof behind saying that I'm wrong or biased, I'm just going to assume you're talking out of your arse.

Let's look at one of your recent posts in this thread.

TBH, if you seriously consider Obama to be a liberal, you're brainwashed, willfully ignorant, or youthfully ignorant. Harsh, but that's about the truth of it.

What you are saying is that if someone disagrees with you, they are unquestionably wrong.

You are not discussing the matter.

You are not willing to discuss the matter.

Discussion is not about getting other people to think in the way you want. It is about determining the optimal conclusion with the aid of other people. Until you are willing to accept that your current attitude may be inaccurate, it will be impossible to engage in meaningful discussion.

The bias being that you are exhibiting is a bias against ideas that you do not currently hold, and a bias towards ideas that you currently hold. Until you can put your ego to rest, and start discussing your ideas instead of preaching them, you're just obstructing others who want to participate in open-minded discussion.

[Lord Dullard]

Fair enough. You're correct, I should have started out without insinuating that my opinion was absolutely correct on that point. Also could have done without the insulting overtones, which I sometimes use too liberally (no pun intended). Lagslayer, sorry about that. I can be spinier than I mean to without realizing it.

However, if somebody can argue that Obama has any really liberal qualities as acting president, I'd seriously like to hear them, and their reasoning. From a purely logical position I can't find any reason to call Obama a 'liberal' president.

[jester]

In any other democracy on earth Obama would be classed as a right winger, (and probably a corporate whore).
Im assuming by liberal you mean leftist, and by conservative, rightist (generally speaking)

  As an eg.  here in aus we just had the head of the greens party retire, he has been openly gay for years and the greens (as you might expect) campaign on a program of environmentalism and a few other lefty type deals like looser drug laws, they generally pull a bit less than 10% of the vote.

[King DZA]

The more I tend to think about it, the more firmly I stand in the conclusion that the entire fucking thing has simply become obsolete.

What exactly is "it"?  I can think of several possibilities.

The more I tend to think about welfare, the more firmly I stand in the conclusion that the entire fucking thing has simply become obsolete.

The more I tend to think about jobs, the more firmly I stand in the conclusion that the entire fucking thing has simply become obsolete.

The more I tend to think about the road system, the more firmly I stand in the conclusion that the entire fucking thing has simply become obsolete.

The more I tend to think about poverty, the more firmly I stand in the conclusion that the entire fucking thing has simply become obsolete.

...Yeah, I'll need you to clarify.

Most of it, if not all of it, I suppose. The tangled, broken web of countless systems that invade and impede nigh every portion of a person's life. The fact that more and more strands are constantly added to this web in a half-assed attempt to fix the unbearable clusterfuck that it has become, and the fact that no one seems to realize that the only way there will be true, lasting change is if people themselves change.

I guess that's what I truly find obsolete, the mindsets. People go off bitching to their leaders, the ones benefiting from the clusterfuck of systems, and demand that they change things for them. Like they're some mystical wizards that just need to be properly persuaded before they decide to wave their magic wands and fix everything.
This world doesn't need better people to tell other people what to do, it needs people who don't to be told what to do. Everywhere, there are people that love science, people that love art, business, technology, architecture and engineering, ect. Many important jobs could be filled by those who love to do them, who have a passion for them. Important jobs that no one really likes to do(road management, as an example) could be a community effort, since they largely benefit the community as a whole. Humanity has the ability to house, feed, and clothe a much greater majority(if not the entirety) its world population, I see no good reason for it to be as much of a problem as it currently is. It just seems like there's a lot of needless bullshit to deal with, and the only reason it hasn't been thrown out is because people have gotten so used to it that they're afraid to try anything else.

Mayhap I'm just too idealistic, or maybe I'm still too tired to think straight, but no one can ever explain to me why things HAVE to be as complicated as they are. And when I see all the potential people have, I can't help but hold high standards for those I know could be doing a hell of a lot better.

[Leafsnail]

What exactly is "it"?

Most of it, if not all of it, I suppose.

Tell me what "it" is.  Please.  Because you're being too vague.  The government, I guess?  You just seem to be bemoaning the fact that there is a problem and claiming that... what, everything would magically fall into place if the government stopped doing "it"?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I guess that's what I truly find obsolete, the mindsets.

Could probably be a pretty good summary of [your] "it," if you were to attempt to read into his post a bit. You know, as opposed to jumping on the first two lines and ignoring the rest for the most part.

[Leafsnail]

WHAT mindsets?  I reread the whole post, and if anything it mystified me even more.  Sure, he says

People go off bitching to their leaders, the ones benefiting from the clusterfuck of systems, and demand that they change things for them. Like they're some mystical wizards that just need to be properly persuaded before they decide to wave their magic wands and fix everything.

But that isn't really saying anything concrete.  I have no idea who he means when he says that.  People advocating more welfare and government services?  People advocating deregulation?  People who get involved in politics?  Anyone who votes in elections or writes to their politicians?  People who just vaguely say that politicians need to "fix things" and don't actually provide solutions?  This passage could refer to almost anyone.

I guess you're saying we should do this stuff ourselves without involving the government... maybe?  All I can discern from it is "This problem shouldn't exist, therefore it doesn't exist and we shouldn't do complicated things to try and solve it".  I feel like I've probably got this wrong so I'd like you to be more concrete in what you're advocating and in what is actually obsolete.

[King DZA]

Yeah, I knew I wasn't being very specific, my bad. Lack of sufficient amounts of caffeine and all.

Anyway, the mindset that change must come through governments or authorities is what I find obsolete. A mindset I see in not any specific group of people, but just most people (that I've encountered, at least) in general. The authority figures are put up on a pedestal like they have some greater capability to make things better, when the only power they have is the power that the people they govern over blindly continue to allow them to have. If people would stop focusing on looking for other people to make things right, and instead put more effort into seeing how they can best contribute themselves, things wouldn't have to be as complicated.

[Immortal]

If people would stop focusing on looking for other people to make things right, and instead put more effort into seeing how they can best contribute themselves, things wouldn't have to be as complicated.

Do you really believe that the general populace would ever consider this? I personally believe the general public is close to incompetent, they are given food if they do nothing. The weak always survive, even when they are close to useless, all because "everyone deserves to live". I say thats bull, if you don't contribute you don't get a slice of the pie.

Most of it, if not all of it, I suppose. The tangled, broken web of countless systems that invade and impede nigh every portion of a person's life. The fact that more and more strands are constantly added to this web in a half-assed attempt to fix the unbearable clusterfuck that it has become, and the fact that no one seems to realize that the only way there will be true, lasting change is if people themselves change.

I guess that's what I truly find obsolete, the mindsets. People go off bitching to their leaders, the ones benefiting from the clusterfuck of systems, and demand that they change things for them. Like they're some mystical wizards that just need to be properly persuaded before they decide to wave their magic wands and fix everything.
This world doesn't need better people to tell other people what to do, it needs people who don't to be told what to do. Everywhere, there are people that love science, people that love art, business, technology, architecture and engineering, ect. Many important jobs could be filled by those who love to do them, who have a passion for them. Important jobs that no one really likes to do(road management, as an example) could be a community effort, since they largely benefit the community as a whole. Humanity has the ability to house, feed, and clothe a much greater majority(if not the entirety) its world population, I see no good reason for it to be as much of a problem as it currently is. It just seems like there's a lot of needless bullshit to deal with, and the only reason it hasn't been thrown out is because people have gotten so used to it that they're afraid to try anything else.

Mayhap I'm just too idealistic, or maybe I'm still too tired to think straight, but no one can ever explain to me why things HAVE to be as complicated as they are. And when I see all the potential people have, I can't help but hold high standards for those I know could be doing a hell of a lot better.

You sound as though liberterianism would suit you.

[kaijyuu]

@kingDZA
Hrm, not sure what you mean by that.


If you mean banding together for protests/etc, just take a look at occupy wall street. People do band together to try and make change.
If you mean stand up and do things yourself, then authority figures have more power to stifle your efforts than you do to accomplish them. By a large margin.



We could all go on strike, or boycott stuff, or whatever, but that's still forcing authority figures into action. If I'm reading your post right, that's not good enough for you, to which I can only reply "tough break, babycakes."

[Frumple]

If people would stop focusing on looking for other people to make things right, and instead put more effort into seeing how they can best contribute themselves, things wouldn't have to be as complicated.

Do you really believe that the general populace would ever consider this? I personally believe the general public is close to incompetent, they are given food if they do nothing. The weak always survive, even when they are close to useless, all because "everyone deserves to live". I say thats bull, if you don't contribute you don't get a slice of the pie.

Hey, yeah, screw children, the temporarily injured, the elderly, and any and everyone incapable of defending themselves from exploitation. No work, no food, deserve death. It's a wonderful world view that necessarily entails goddamn everybody dies. I see no problems!

As for low level government, DZA, which is basically what you're talking about, it's a wonderful idea that consistently breaks down once you hit a certain population density -- simple fact is that sheer logistics demand a certain degree of authority figures after things hit a certain point. It's certainly a lower and less pervasive degree than we've got (mostly because of the whole power seeks more power thing), though. Communications technology might be cutting into the extent that's necessary (See some of the Arab Spring stuff, ferex), but it's still years from actually coming into full maturity.

The why of it not really working is just scope, more or less. People working as individuals, even in tandem, have serious problems dealing with issues beyond the level of information they're able to process. You end up needing specialists in processing and disseminating that information appropriately -- i.e. authority figures. That gets the ball rolling, and then we end up where we're at. There's potential for technological solutions in the future, but at the moment all we can try to do is mitigate the damage to the extent we're able (currently failing pretty hardcore, but it could be worse).

[UltraValican]

If people would stop focusing on looking for other people to make things right, and instead put more effort into seeing how they can best contribute themselves, things wouldn't have to be as complicated.

Do you really believe that the general populace would ever consider this? I personally believe the general public is close to incompetent, they are given food if they do nothing. The weak always survive, even when they are close to useless, all because "everyone deserves to live". I say thats bull, if you don't contribute you don't get a slice of the pie.[

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm operating under the assupmtion you grew up in a stable/not totalitarian country where you were forced into the army.
Everyone has the right to live, Everyone has a right to contribute. The "weak" and "incompetent" deserve to live just as much as the "strong" and "valuble".
I apoligize if you take offense to the image, but what you said was way too cruel.

[Truean]

....

Often people mistake unlucky for "weak" and "incompetent."  This is a tragedy.

There are probably 15-20 Million people unemployed people in the US currently. Isn't it interesting many of them got laid off at about the same time after years, sometimes decades, of stable work? How about college students who are exactly the same as the crop of kids who graduated a couple years before they did but just can't find work? Did millions upon millions of people suddenly go from competent to incompetent in an incredibly short period of time? How? Or, more likely, did the system just go wonky?

Many of those people are unemployed because the company they work for tanked and is no longer in business due to the economy or the incompetence of managers.... Many of those people had jobs, but due to outsourcing to a country with practically slave labor costs, they just don't anymore. These are factors entirely out of their control. If your boss is a moron and tanks the business, or the economy just sucks/nobody is buying what the company you work for is selling, then that isn't your fault, because there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

What's really great, people love to throw around works like "weak" and "incompetent," in relation to "other" people (certainly not themselves). It gives us an excuse to look down on people while impliedly trying to make ourselves look good by comparison. Never mind that, it's not fun to think that way. It also isn't fun to think, truthfully, that one day someone could decide you or I are "weak" and "incompetent." It can happen and it does....

[Immortal]

If people would stop focusing on looking for other people to make things right, and instead put more effort into seeing how they can best contribute themselves, things wouldn't have to be as complicated.

Do you really believe that the general populace would ever consider this? I personally believe the general public is close to incompetent, they are given food if they do nothing. The weak always survive, even when they are close to useless, all because "everyone deserves to live". I say thats bull, if you don't contribute you don't get a slice of the pie.

Hey, yeah, screw children, the temporarily injured, the elderly, and any and everyone incapable of defending themselves from exploitation. No work, no food, deserve death. It's a wonderful world view that necessarily entails goddamn everybody dies. I see no problems!

Obviously your taking what I said to the extreme. I assumed I did not need to clarify such things to you.. Children (who will probably contribute), elderly (who probably did), temporarily injured and other obvious cases included are not part of that statement. My above statement meant anyone who does not wish to contribute and just simply leech, such as those who just drink all day, people who constantly live on welfare and do not wish to change. It does however include those who are unintelligent..

If people would stop focusing on looking for other people to make things right, and instead put more effort into seeing how they can best contribute themselves, things wouldn't have to be as complicated.

Do you really believe that the general populace would ever consider this? I personally believe the general public is close to incompetent, they are given food if they do nothing. The weak always survive, even when they are close to useless, all because "everyone deserves to live". I say thats bull, if you don't contribute you don't get a slice of the pie.[

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm operating under the assupmtion you grew up in a stable/not totalitarian country where you were forced into the army.
Everyone has the right to live, Everyone has a right to contribute. The "weak" and "incompetent" deserve to live just as much as the "strong" and "valuble".
I apoligize if you take offense to the image, but what you said was way too cruel.

No offence taken. See above statement.
My background starts at lower middle class family. I worked my ass off along with parents, tried my best, and now I'm in engineering currently on co-op still working. My parents have now moved up and would be middle class, maybe upper middle(depending on your view). Father was a baker, mother was a waitress.

Have you not noticed the fact that humans aren't really getting much smarter? (Please don't pick apart the next view on evolution, different topic) Humans are no longer being weeded out. The government and people who support the action suspend everyone at a level we cannot sustain. How many contries have positive revenue? I agree with the opening poster, we are stuck in a loop which cannot be sustained. It needs to be streamlines and removed from government hands. Though support is obviously needed for the aformention groups of people who will soon/have contributed to society.

Ninja'd by Truean - read above. Either way the US economy is far beyond easy repair.

I am slightly being a devil's advocate for arguement sake.

[bombzero]

A correct man cannot be a devils advocate.